Varsity girls scrimmage the other night. Had three illegal screen calls in the first quarter on the home team which had the coach a bit upset since he was obviously teaching this technique. As girls would move laterally in the front court, one of his girls would jumpstop in front of the moving defender. On occasion, the defender was able to avoid the screen, but in most cases the defender could not and would crash into the offensive player. I know this is a judgement call and can be a tough one to make, but in my opinion, the offensive player was not allowing the defender enough distance (1-2 steps/strides) to avoid the contact. Anyone else see this coaching teachnique in the girls game?
BTW, it stopped by the second quarter and the coach wanted to know why I wasn't allowing his kids to set picks. I told him if set properly, they can set all the picks they want, but these were not legal and better that they learn it now then during the season. |
First of all there is really no such thing as a moving screen. The term has nothing to do with an illegal screen or not. You can have a still screener and the screen can be illegal. That is just a pet peeve of mine, ignore my comments. ;)
As a general philosophy I do not reward players being screened with fouls when they decide to not run thru the screen or stop and change direction. There has to be (in my way of thinking) some kind of displacement. If there is just "touching" I do not have a foul. I was not at your game to decide what really was illegal. If there was contact and you feel it was enough for a foul, then maybe you should have called it. That is after all why we get paid the big bucks. Peace |
Would only comment that many illegal screens never become a foul because the screened player runs around the moving or late screen and avoids contact or most contact. Remember, no contact, no foul, even though the screen is illegal.
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ART. 1 . . . A screen is legal action by a player who, without causing contact, delays or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position. ART. 2 . . . To establish a legal screening position: a. The screener may face any direction. b. Time and distance are relevant. c. The screener must be stationary, except when both are moving in the same path and the same direction. ART. 3 . . . When screening a stationary opponent from the front or side, the screener may be anywhere short of contact. ART. 4 . . . When screening a stationary opponent from behind, the screener must allow the opponent one normal step backward without contact. ART. 5 . . . When screening a moving opponent, the screener must allow the opponent time and distance to avoid contact. The distance need not be more than two strides. ART. 6 . . . When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener is moving, the opponent is responsible for contact if the screener slows up or stops. Sounds like you got it right to me. The coach needs to understand that his clever technique is illegal. |
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Bad, bad, way to think about this... There can be significant contact in basketball that is quite legal. Don't call fouls or "stop it early" on action that is legal because "kids can get hurt." Your job as an official is to follow the rules. If someone gets hurt on a legal play that is unfortunate, but a part of sports. Rule 4 SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and which does not constitute a foul. ART. 1 . . . The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur. ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe. ART. 3 . . . Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental. ART. 4 . . . A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact with the screener by stopping or going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled incidental contact, provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball. ART. 5 . . . If, however, a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position. |
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If there was no illegal contact, the screen was a legal screen. Only if there was illegal contract then the screen was illegal. MTD, Sr. |
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Peace |
Reproduced directly and accurately from the 2001-02 <b>RULE BOOK</b>:
POE #4C-.Screens .<b>Moving screens</b> 1. The screener must be stationary upon contact. 2. It is not a <b>moving screen</b> unless there is contact. 'Nuff said. |
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[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:24 PM] |
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From what you wrote I have no foul here at all. the girl can jumpstop all day for all I care right before the girl hits her and this not be illegal. When a screener is in the visual parameters of the screenee, time and distance do not matter. I believe the rulebook says anything short of contact. I would say that this is just my opinion but it's not, it's the NFHS's, NCAA's, and NBA's. For what it's worth I don't like to see kids get hurt because of stuff like this, but it happens. I'll give you two examples: 1) Kings and Mavericks at dallas: bibby taking the ball up the floor with the dallas rookie pg putting pressure on him in the backcourt. bibby starts to accelerate. right about that time the center for the kings turns around just in time and gets a firm position, the kid hits the center and is knocked out cold. danny crawford, the referee, deemed this to be legal contact. The kid who got screened had a concussion. 2)YBOA state tournament 9 and under: Little girls falling down everywhere and parents getting upset of course, nothing illegal happening(working with a college official by the way)With about 5 seconds left in the game almost the same as above happened except the whole team was in a press, and the little girl went down and the coach/mom came onto the court with no whistle being sounded and just started to berate me, so I T her up calmly and told her to attend to the child, then all of sudden the asst. coach/dad comes onto the floor hootin and hollerin, and my partner comes from behind and had to toss him out of the gym. All that just to reiterate what somebody said earlier, we are not out there to keep people from getting hurt, we are out there to call it by the rules, and from what it sounds like you know those pretty well and are confident in your skills, but you are like me when I first started reffing, you think if someone gets hurt it is your fault cause you didn't catch something sooner. Yes coaches and parents will blame you for it most of the time, but that comes with making the "big bucks". keep working hard to get those plays right. tip: whether you are in two or three man crew, if you can get to the topside of these screens especially in pick n' roll plays it is like a whole new world. |
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The screening concept that you are trying to use applies only to a <b>stationary</b> opponent. Time and distance apply to screens set on a <b>moving</b> opponent. Different rules for different situations. It might be a good idea to read and learn NFHS rule 10-6-3. Might keep you outa trouble some day. Don't pontificate unless you really know what you're doing. It kinda makes you look a l'il silly when you're so badly wrong. |
Had a varsity girls scrimmage the other night, and a similar play happened. A1 dribbling down the sideline in front of B's bench just across halfcourt, B1 defending and running along side A1. I see A2 in my field of vision come running up from the baseline to set a screen on B1. She jumpstops at the top of the key extended and waits for B1, and as A1 dribbles past the screen B1 gets totally wiped out. B's bench jumps up screaming for an illegal screen, but everything was legal. B1 took two steps before contact, A2 was set w/out high elbows or leaning. Just a tooth-rattling screen set legally. I saw it coming and knew there was a possibility for injury, but can't stop the game to say "Hey, WATCH OUT!!!" I would forfeit my stripes for life!
Just ref the rules, can't ref the potential for injury on every play. Preventative officiating goes a long way towards cleaning this up, but you can't protect or prevent evry injury from occuring. |
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How's the wheel btw? |
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Once again, a screen can be moving and be completely legal. I personally do not like the term or accept the terminology as properly being used. If you want to use the term “moving screen” that is your prerogative to do so. Around here, it is not an accepted term because it is not a term the rulebook uses except for that POE. And when that POE came out, there was debate if they should have used the term at all. They also made it clear that all there principles of incidental contact still applied and you had to have the proper time and distance as stated in the rulebook. Peace |
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In many official's opinions, you look like a clown wearing a belt on your pants. No differnet if you wear a collared shirt. Get with the times already. Peace [Edited by JRutledge on Nov 14th, 2005 at 11:38 AM] |
Often its taught also
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Several times his girls got decked and the coach could not understand why we were letting them set so many illegal screens on his players. Finally I simply told the coach, if your players want to run into the picks thats fine, but I'm not going to penalize the player that is setting a legal pick. Now, later we had a couple of illegal screens that we did call and of course the coach let us know "about time you call that" - sigh! Thanks David |
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Oh my, I shouldn't let my fingers drive the typewriter when they are sober, LOL. MTD, Sr. |
Re: Often its taught also
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Finally I simply told the coach, if your players want to run into the picks thats fine, but <font color = red>I'm not going to penalize the player that is setting a legal pick.</font> [/B][/QUOTE]No, but you shoulda been penalizing the player(s) that were running through the screens. That's an automatic foul. Any player who is screened in their visual field is supposed to at least make an attempt to run around the screen. They can't just go ahead and plow into the screener. Rule 4-27-4. There's a case play or POE somewhere on this one too. Went and looked for a reference: NFHS 2002-03 Rule book: <b>POE 3C</b> MOVING SCREENS: - The screener must be stationary on contact. - It is not a moving screen unless there is contact. - The screened player is expected to stop or attempt to stop on contact and move around the screen. - Excessive contact or <B>"pushing through the screen"</B> is illegal [Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 14th, 2005 at 12:05 PM] |
Moving screens are the best plays in basketball! If I was a coach, I would teach my team the art of the moving screen! I moving screen is legal until there is contact. Then it becomes an illegal screen!
If the defender moves around the screener while the screener is moving, I have nothing! |
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Don't worry about it, you're on target. |
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Peace |
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No, you cannot. |
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In cases with the screener and id the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact or moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball. Rule 4-27-1 also says: The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur. Rule 4-27-3 always says: Similarly, contact which does not hinder normal the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental. Peace |
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I think I love it most when you - and everyone else in the gym - see a player going to set a screen, and make an awkward lunge at the opposing player they are attempting to screen but they don't make any contact at all. The coaches scream "Illegal screen!!", but no contact has occured. Can't call anything (without making something up), but I can let the player know that if contact occurs, foul will be called.
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TH,
I have shown you the rules that I feel illustrate why the term "moving screen" should not be used. If you feel it should be used, knock yourself out. When I look in 4-27, 4-40 and 10-6, for some odd reason I do not see the term "moving screen" used one time. I guess the rules makers are completely wrong. Maybe they should come up with a definition so that you can be right on this one. Until that time comes, we should not use the term. I have a right to that opinion as many others I know feel the same way. The term suggests that a screen is illegal because it was moving. A screen can be stationary and be illegal. You are not going to change my mind. Peace |
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Peace |
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I agree with JRutledge on this one.
Refering anything as a moving screen can only cause trouble. For an overwhelming majority of those that hear "moving screen" it means something completely different than the situation that Chuck is pointing out. It will be heard as the common meaning instead of the intended meaning. |
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have: to use or exhibit in action. None of you people exhibit self respect. |
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"None" is singular in number. "Exhibit" is plural in number. You should say, "None of you exhibits self respect." Just trying to help. [Edited by ChuckElias on Nov 15th, 2005 at 07:59 AM] |
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Just trying to help. :D |
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None of you has any self respect. (Of course, all but 1 of you can reach the back burner of his stove without standing on a chair...but I digress...) |
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So if the dribbler is going down court, can three of his team mates form a line alongside of him as screeners and keep the defense from getting to the dribbler as he goes in for a lay up? They are moving screens and there is no contact. Is that legal?
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