NFHS Questions

[Panda Bear]

I'm not a Basketball referee (I do Softball, Baseball, & am involved with Football), so I don't have a current rule book. Question arose from a discussion about an unfortunate sequence of events I witnessed.

Situation: A player (though the question could apply to a coach) reacts extremely and inappropriately to a call, and gets technicals & ejected. So far, so good. The reaction to the ejection is an even more extreme case of bad behavior, which delays the game close to 10 min. before things can go on. Coaching staff did not contribute to the scene, but did little to resolve it for quite a while. Referee took no further action, except to wait it out.

On the diamond, the manager can also be ejected for uncontrolled actions of team members (or if the actual culprit cannot be identified). On the football field, additional personal fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct can and have been called after an ejection. The idea is to not hand someone ejected a free pass for further misbehavior; the team will be penalized.

But in basketball (NFHS),

1. Can additional technicals (and therefore free throws for the other team) be assessed to someone already ejected?

2. Is there such a thing as a "team technical foul", or must they be assessed to someone, possibly leading to their disqualification & suspension?

3. Is/can/must the head coach be charged with technical fouls for individual or group infractions actually comitted by 1+ others?

Hopefully, no event such as this will arise again, but if it does, I'm curious what the requirements and discretionary actions for the referees are?

Thanks in advance for the interp.

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by Panda Bear

1. Can additional technicals (and therefore free throws for the other team) be assessed to someone already ejected?

2. Is there such a thing as a "team technical foul", or must they be assessed to someone, possibly leading to their disqualification & suspension?

3. Is/can/must the head coach be charged with technical fouls for individual or group infractions actually comitted by 1+ others?

1. Yes... At least for a limited amount of time... That is to say that when a player is ejected from the game, they become bench personnel and the Head Coach's responsibility. So if additional T's are assessed to this ejected player, then they are also assessed to the Head Coach.. After 3 indirect T's, the coach is history and if there's no assistant the game's over...
2. No
3. Yes.. Can..

[Nevadaref]

Despite the above post, the correct answers are:
1. Yes, in NFHS play a player or coach who has already received enough fouls or technical fouls to merit disqualification can and should be charged with additional technical fouls for poor behavior. However, the NCAA has the following provision which prohibits this: (Rule 10, Section 2, Article 2) "When a player, member of bench personnel or coach has been ejected for having incurred the maximum number of technical fouls, no additional technical fouls shall be assessed."

2. Yep, sure is. Rule 10, Section 1, Articles 1 through 11 are all TEAM technical fouls which are not charged to a specific individual, but only to the team as a whole and count as part of the 10 team fouls per half towards the putting the opponent in the bonus.

3. Not directly. In NFHS play, the head coach receives an indirect technical foul for each direct technical foul charged to someone who is bench personnel. On the third indirect the coach is DQ'd. The head coach cannot by rule be assessed a direct technical foul for something that someone else did. Direct T's are only for that specific individual's actions. Two direct techs equals disqualification.
The NCAA has a ruling that the head coach can be charged a direct technical foul when the offender on the bench cannot be identified:
Rule 10, Section 9, Article 1
"A.R. 10. The official is advancing up the playing court to cover the play and as the official passes Team A’s bench with his or her back to it, someone on that bench uses uncomplimentary language. The official is certain from which bench the uncomplimentary language came but not from which party. RULING: When the official cannot, with assurance, determine the violator, the official shall charge the direct technical foul to the head coach. The official alone shall decide to whom a direct technical foul shall be charged. It is not the prerogative of the coach or other bench personnel to come forward as the party guilty of unsportsmanlike bench decorum."
But again the NFHS does NOT have this rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Just Curious

1. Yes... At least for a limited amount of time... That is to say that when a player is ejected from the game, they become bench personnel and the Head Coach's responsibility. So if additional T's are assessed to this ejected player, then they are also assessed to the Head Coach.. After 3 indirect T's, the coach is history and if there's no assistant the game's over...
2. No
3. Yes.. Can..

Wow, I'm still recovering from the shock of reading this.

[Panda Bear]

more questions.

How does the combination of direct & indirect Technicals work? Or are they totally separate. Example: Coach has received 1 indirect technical for something, then later gets 1 direct technical for an unrelated issue.

I assume he isn't disqualified at that point, nor would he be if still later there is a 2nd. indirect technical. Unusual for sure, but 35 years experience with various sports has tought me that nothing is impossible.

Side note, the NCAA limitation is interesting. What do they do, just call for security?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Panda Bear
How does the combination of direct & indirect Technicals work? Or are they totally separate. Example: Coach has received 1 indirect technical for something, then later gets 1 direct technical for an unrelated issue.

In NFHS, a head coach is ejected for 2 direct technical fouls or any combination of 3 direct and/or indirect technical fouls. So in your example, the coach would not be disqualified. If he was charged with another indirect technical (for an assistant coach's derogatory comments, for example), then the head coach would be directed to leave the game.

Side note, the NCAA limitation is interesting. What do they do, just call for security?

And then write the report.

[Panda Bear]

Excellent explanation. Much appreciated.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Panda Bear
more questions.

How does the combination of direct & indirect Technicals work? Or are they totally separate. Example: Coach has received 1 indirect technical for something, then later gets 1 direct technical for an unrelated issue.

I assume he isn't disqualified at that point, nor would he be if still later there is a 2nd. indirect technical. Unusual for sure, but 35 years experience with various sports has tought me that nothing is impossible.

Side note, the NCAA limitation is interesting. What do they do, just call for security?

A coach is disqualified when they recieve 2 direct T or a total of 3 T (direct or indirect).

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Panda Bear
Excellent explanation. Much appreciated.

You can always count on Chuck for an excellent explanation. The rest of us... well.....

[Kelvin green]

Nevref where doe the rule book say we should asses more than 2 T's on someone for bad behavior?

Every body talks about number of T's here I am going to tell you bull^&^%

A player reacts picks up two T's and is disqualified, with the behavior of the ejcetion taking 10 minutes...
You gotta be kidding right?

If the reaction is that bad it takes all but about 15 seconds to tell the coach to get contol of the player. It there is a temper tantrum going on there is about another 15-30 seconds that it takes me to tell the coach and administrator that they will find an adult to escort the kid out in the next 30 seconds.

If the kid refuses to leave the game is over.

This is exactly the kind of bench decorum crap that NFHS wants us to avoid. The person taking 10 minutes is making a mockery of the game nd as Chuck so often and ably points out making a mockery of the game is a forefit.

There is no fight, there is no one to break up, there is nothing to sort out. Player oes to the bench and shuts the H%^*& up of the game is over.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Nevref where doe the rule book say we should asses more than 2 T's on someone for bad behavior?

Every body talks about number of T's here I am going to tell you bull^&^%

A player reacts picks up two T's and is disqualified, with the behavior of the ejcetion taking 10 minutes...
You gotta be kidding right?

If the reaction is that bad it takes all but about 15 seconds to tell the coach to get contol of the player. It there is a temper tantrum going on there is about another 15-30 seconds that it takes me to tell the coach and administrator that they will find an adult to escort the kid out in the next 30 seconds.

If the kid refuses to leave the game is over.

This is exactly the kind of bench decorum crap that NFHS wants us to avoid. The person taking 10 minutes is making a mockery of the game nd as Chuck so often and ably points out making a mockery of the game is a forefit.

There is no fight, there is no one to break up, there is nothing to sort out. Player oes to the bench and shuts the H%^*& up of the game is over.

I think it's clear that the refs didn't handle it very well. And once the kid is dq, then the head coach is responsible, and could -- make that should -- be T'd for not controlling the kid. And the kid should be reported to what ever governing body there is, and should not be allowed on the floor again until he gets a doctor's note!

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
This is exactly the kind of bench decorum crap that NFHS wants us to avoid. The person taking 10 minutes is making a mockery of the game nd as Chuck so often and ably points out making a mockery of the game is a forefit.

Actually, I think the word is travesty, not mockery.

[Panda Bear]

This is why I asked the question about the specifics of the rules. It struck me, as an official in other sports, as poorly handled. But before being too critical of any situation, I always want to verify the code in effect.

In the case that prompted this, I suspect the crew was as surprised as anyone at the extent of the demonstration, but made the decision to avoid possibly escalating the matter by appearing too overbearing.

Having dealt with more than a few fiascos myself, I know that whether thats the best decision is always a judgement call and a had-to-be-there situation.

It was most unusual, but in today's world, situations like this are happening enough to be worthy of some forethought should something like it arise again.

[refnrev]

I read this fast so if I missed a key point, forgive me. But if it took ten minutes after an ejection everyone -- the Dq'd player, officials, coaches, school adminstration, and maybe in an extreme case even a parent --- everyone dropped the ball. You also have to recognize that this kid needs to sit a few games until he (she) can get his (her) head screwed on straight. I'm glad I didn't see this. It sounds too ugly to watch.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Panda Bear
This is why I asked the question about the specifics of the rules. It struck me, as an official in other sports, as poorly handled. But before being too critical of any situation, I always want to verify the code in effect.

In the case that prompted this, I suspect the crew was as surprised as anyone at the extent of the demonstration, but made the decision to avoid possibly escalating the matter by appearing too overbearing.

Having dealt with more than a few fiascos myself, I know that whether thats the best decision is always a judgement call and a had-to-be-there situation.

It was most unusual, but in today's world, situations like this are happening enough to be worthy of some forethought should something like it arise again.

C'mon Panda Bear...come clean.

This was NO WAY a NFHS sanctioned game, now was it?

This sounds like some crap a men's league would pull...but, a H.S. game...I find this hard to believe.
If so...what level of ball...and how experienced were the officials?

As one poster pointed out...there were a lot of balls dropped here!