Capped Ball--AP

[rainmaker]

Rule 4-25-2 A held ball occurs when an opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

Okay, so, I had a partner in this last spring league who kept calling held balls that I would have ruled, "close but no cigar." Either the shooter's feet were still on the floor, or the shooter dropped the ball, or the cap happened just as the shot left the shooter's hand, and was actually a blocked shot that got batted down. I worked several games with this guy over the course of four weeks, and I saw each of these situations mis-called in this way. It brought to mind these questions:

For a player to be airborne, do the feet have to be completely off the floor? I mean, tiptoe isn't high enough, is it?

The ball-handler has to retain control at least for some fraction of time, doesn't he/she? Theoretically, if the shooter saw it coming, couldn't she release the ball as the defender touched it, and then retrieve it?

[MOFFICIAL]

I think the rule states clearly what to look for. The ball is prevented from being released. To me that means the ball did not have seperation from the shooter/passers hand.

As for tiptoes I'd look at it as I do traveling.

As for releasing and retrieving I'd have to see it. But I do see where it could be legal.

[Edited by MOFFICIAL on May 5th, 2001 at 07:50 AM]

[Jim Dixon]

I wrote about this not long ago.

It was called, "Held Ball #2 — Try This Next Time on a Blocked Shot."

Perhaps that addresses some of your concern. If not, write to me and we can discuss, or continue this thread and we'll see if others view it as I do.

One general point of the article was trying to limit whistles. Sometimes you can just let them play on.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by MOFFICIAL
As for tiptoes I'd look at it as I do traveling.

MOFF--How DO you look at travelling? I have the same questions there!


Jim Dixon -- I went back and lookd through your article, but I still feel the same. I had thought I knew the interpretation of this rule pretty well. It seems pretty cut and dried to me. I' m wondering if I'm wrong about my interp. Your article has some interesting points but it doesn't clarify the details in the way I'm seeking. The plays I saw this guy call appeared to me to be clearly not jump balls, yet that is what he called them. Some of them of course, I didn't get a good look at. But there were several that I saw clearly, at least two where the shooter's feet clearly never left the floor. Or where the ball was not "capped" but slapped out of the ball-handler's hand. Yes, they were both touching it for a fraction of an instant, but there's no was you could say the ball-handler was "prevented from releasing the ball." Quite the contrary, she was forced TO release it! But perhaps there's an interp which I'm missing.

[MOFFICIAL]

Regarding traveling I look for the lifting of the pivot foot off the floor. On a shot or pass the ball must be released before the foot is replaced on the floor. On a dribble the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. That's why I'd have to see the play when the ball was capped to see if it was a pass/shot or a dribble.If a player started what I determined to be a pass or shot and was defended and then released as for a dribble that would constitute traveling.
If the tiptoe is the pivot foot and it comes off the floor it is subject to my definition of traveling above.

Originally posted by rainmaker
Rule 4-25-2 A held ball occurs when an opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

Okay, so, I had a partner in this last spring league who kept calling held balls that I would have ruled, "close but no cigar." Either the shooter's feet were still on the floor, or the shooter dropped the ball, or the cap happened just as the shot left the shooter's hand, and was actually a blocked shot that got batted down. I worked several games with this guy over the course of four weeks, and I saw each of these situations mis-called in this way. It brought to mind these questions:

For a player to be airborne, do the feet have to be completely off the floor? I mean, tiptoe isn't high enough, is it?

The ball-handler has to retain control at least for some fraction of time, doesn't he/she? Theoretically, if the shooter saw it coming, couldn't she release the ball as the defender touched it, and then retrieve it?

What if this play occurs on a set shot? The players feet never leave the ground but it's still a held ball. My feeling on this is don't penalize a good defensive play, Call the jump ball and go to the arrow. As far as releasing it, if she is smart enough and doesn't commit the traveling violation, then it's nothing, play on

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Suppref


What if this play occurs on a set shot? The players feet never leave the ground but it's still a held ball. My feeling on this is don't penalize a good defensive play, Call the jump ball and go to the arrow. As far as releasing it, if she is smart enough and doesn't commit the traveling violation, then it's nothing, play on

Hmmm, if the shooter's feet never left the ground then it's
going to take a lot more than a capped ball for me to
blow the whistle for a held ball.

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Hmmm, if the shooter's feet never left the ground then it's
going to take a lot more than a capped ball for me to
blow the whistle for a held ball.

So, if a player takes a set shot and the defender gets a hand on it and doesn't allow the ball to be released, what do you have? That's a held/jump ball in MHO.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Suppref

So, if a player takes a set shot and the defender gets a hand on it and doesn't allow the ball to be released, what do you have? That's a held/jump ball in MHO.

Not in my opinion. What I have depends on what happens next.
I believe the rules are clear that a held ball should be
called only when both players have control and it's clear
neither player will gain sole control, except in the case of
an airborne shooter when the defender only has to prevent
release. No airborne shooter then the defender needs to not
only cap the ball, he has to grab it & not let go.

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Not in my opinion. What I have depends on what happens next.
I believe the rules are clear that a held ball should be
called only when both players have control and it's clear
neither player will gain sole control, except in the case of
an airborne shooter when the defender only has to prevent
release. No airborne shooter then the defender needs to not
only cap the ball, he has to grab it & not let go.

I agree with all you say but, for discussion purposes only, is not an airborne shooter considered in the act of shooting? And is a set shot in the act of shooting? I see this as the same thing, this happens on the girls level all the time, I don't remember ever seeing it at the boys level. What do you think?

[Edited by Suppref on May 10th, 2001 at 10:32 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Suppref
I agree with all you say but, for discussion purposes only, is not an airborne shooter considered in the act of shooting? And is a set shot in the act of shooting? I see this as the same thing, this happens on the girls level all the time, I don't remember ever seeing it at the boys level. What do you think?

The logic here doesn't follow. Just because A > C, and B > C, it doesn't mean that A > B automatically. The rule book is very clear that the capped ball thing only applies to the airborne shooter, not to continuous motion. My question isn't so much where the rule applies -- it's the definition of an airborne shooter. Do the feet have to be completely off the floor? I tend to think so, but I'm wondering if I have misinterpreted something.

Suppref said below that he doesn't want to "penalize good defense." But it's no penalty to no-call something that shouldn't be called. Penalyt would be calling it blocking, or something like that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Suppref said below that he doesn't want to "penalize good defense." But it's no penalty to no-call something that shouldn't be called. Penalyt would be calling it blocking, or something like that.

Okay, I stand corrected, (I love this forum!!) An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try....and has not returned to the floor. The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting. So,the literal interpretation would say that both feet have to be off the floor no "tip-toes". It seem like a no-call is the best call.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Suppref

I agree with all you say but, for discussion purposes only, is not an airborne shooter considered in the act of shooting? And is a set shot in the act of shooting? I see this as the same thing, this happens on the girls level all the time, I don't remember ever seeing it at the boys level. What do you think?

[Edited by Suppref on May 10th, 2001 at 10:32 AM]

An airborne shooter is treated differently under the
rules than someone shooting from the set. One way
of protecting the airborne shooter is by letting us
call the capped ball play a held ball, otherwise it's
a travel (and it could be a travel or double dribble in some
cases if you look at the case book on this). A player
shooting from the set is not protected in this way. BTW,
one thing that girls often do is to only rise up on their
tip-toes on a shot, or only raise 1 foot off the floor on a
shot. Players who do either are not airborne shooters.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

... My question isn't so much where the rule applies -- it's the definition of an airborne shooter. Do the feet have to be completely off the floor? I tend to think so, but I'm wondering if I have misinterpreted something.
...

Yep, both feet off the floor. Airborne player status ends
when either foot retouches.