Sub after 2nd free throw

[rookieref2005]

Yesterday, we had a middle school coach that liked to sub for the free throw shooter so he could set up his press. A few times he sent a sub to the bench as we administered the ball on the second free and we obliged on the make and allowed the sub to enter. However, the sub was replacing a player other than the shooter.

The other coach got very upset, saying, "You can only sub for the shooter on the second free throw." In other words, if team A subs after the second of two free throws, the shooter has to come out.

I told the coach that I've never heard of that rule and that I suspect that he hasn't either--it's just what is commonly done.

Can anyone help me out so I know if I was correct?

Can Team A have a sub enter for a non-shooter after the second (of two) free throw (the coach always had the kid go to the table as we administered the second free throw so he wouldn't have to enter between free throws)?

I thought it was OK--it just stretched the game out a little.

Thanks.
The Rook

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rookieref2005
Yesterday, we had a middle school coach that liked to sub for the free throw shooter so he could set up his press. A few times he sent a sub to the bench as we administered the ball on the second free and we obliged on the make and allowed the sub to enter. However, the sub was replacing a player other than the shooter.

The other coach got very upset, saying, "You can only sub for the shooter on the second free throw." In other words, if team A subs after the second of two free throws, the shooter has to come out.

I told the coach that I've never heard of that rule and that I suspect that he hasn't either--it's just what is commonly done.

Can anyone help me out so I know if I was correct?

Can Team A have a sub enter for a non-shooter after the second (of two) free throw (the coach always had the kid go to the table as we administered the second free throw so he wouldn't have to enter between free throws)?

I thought it was OK--it just stretched the game out a little.

Thanks.
The Rook

As long as the sub gets to the table in time he can sub for anyone on his team.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by rookieref2005
Yesterday, we had a middle school coach that liked to sub for the free throw shooter so he could set up his press. A few times he sent a sub to the bench as we administered the ball on the second free and we obliged on the make and allowed the sub to enter. However, the sub was replacing a player other than the shooter.

The other coach got very upset, saying, "You can only sub for the shooter on the second free throw." In other words, if team A subs after the second of two free throws, the shooter has to come out.

I told the coach that I've never heard of that rule and that I suspect that he hasn't either--it's just what is commonly done.

Can anyone help me out so I know if I was correct?

Can Team A have a sub enter for a non-shooter after the second (of two) free throw (the coach always had the kid go to the table as we administered the second free throw so he wouldn't have to enter between free throws)?

I thought it was OK--it just stretched the game out a little.

Thanks.
The Rook

Legal.

I usually don't let them in though, if they aren't at the table and completely ready as the ball is falling through the net. I just don't look. If the table buzzes anyway, or the kid starts to run onto the floor, I try to "wave them off". IF that totally doesn't work, then talk to the table or the coach and say, no one comes onto the floor until a ref beckons.

[Jurassic Referee]

Rule 3-3-1(c) is the cite, Rook.

[ThickSkin]

Originally posted by rookieref2005
The other coach got very upset, saying, "You can only sub for the shooter on the second free throw." In other words, if team A subs after the second of two free throws, the shooter has to come out.

When you are getting out coached, you gotta make up a rule to help your team out.

As stated by everyone else. If the sub is at the table, he/she can replace anyone on their team.

[SmokeEater]

NCAA rule 3-4 art. 10

perfectly legal to substitute for anyone after the final attempt has been converted.

[Kelvin green]

By the way I think that this is a rule that should be eliminated.

Too many coaches are doing exactly what is described, trying to slow down the game, set up plays, and other stuff. It's slowing the game down and needs to be eliminated.

I belive that we should not allow a sub here. It is the only place where we allow a sub on a scored basket. Just because the clock is stopped? I say dump the rule

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
By the way I think that this is a rule that should be eliminated.

Too many coaches are doing exactly what is described, trying to slow down the game, set up plays, and other stuff. It's slowing the game down and needs to be eliminated.

I belive that we should not allow a sub here. It is the only place where we allow a sub on a scored basket. Just because the clock is stopped? I say dump the rule

You have to be kidding, right?

So no shooter can ever leave the game, and it makes no difference that A6 may have been at the table before the foul.

A coach never reacts to a substitution from the other team, and by the time their player gets to the table the final FT has been administered.

Most coaches will set up their press after a made hoop, so just what strategic advantage is gained by the sub? If anything it gives the throwing team a free look at how the defense sets up.

Does it add a few seconds to the game? Sure, why not get rid of free throws and timeouts too, since they take up far more time than subs coming in after a made FT.

[crazy voyager]

FIBA then :P

Last season, only shooter, this season (from the 1st of October) "both teams can exchange any player after a second hit free throw". So allowed over here anyway

[ChuckElias]

I agree with Kelvin. This is another rule that the NBA has right. No subs during the dead ball period following a made goal, whether from the field or from the FT line, unless there is a TO taken.

I don't like the HS/NCAA rule b/c smart coaches basically use it as a 20-second time-out. And they get an unlimited number of them. Ditch it.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Oct 28th, 2005 at 08:53 AM]

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by blindzebra

You have to be kidding, right?

So no shooter can ever leave the game, and it makes no difference that A6 may have been at the table before the foul.

A coach never reacts to a substitution from the other team, and by the time their player gets to the table the final FT has been administered.

Most coaches will set up their press after a made hoop, so just what strategic advantage is gained by the sub? If anything it gives the throwing team a free look at how the defense sets up.

Does it add a few seconds to the game? Sure, why not get rid of free throws and timeouts too, since they take up far more time than subs coming in after a made FT.

Absolutely not kidding. As Chuck noted the NBA has this right-

Chuck I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks the NBA got this one right.

Coaches can react to substitutions but they ought to do it so it doesnt turn into a delay tactic. Nothing says that it has to be fair... If Coach A subs he makes a coaching decision. Nothing in the rules says that Coach B should have an equal opportunity to counter that sub.

If the coach wants to react to the sub, the player goes in the next time allowed but not after a made basket... (if we changed the rule) If he wants to directly counter the sub make him call a TO.

The only difference between this play and any other scored basket is that the clock is stopped. We dont allow a team to substitute on EVERY DEAD BALL now. Ball has been put in play, keep it in play!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
We dont allow a team to substitute on EVERY DEAD BALL now. Ball has been put in play, keep it in play!

No, Kelvin, but in HS we do allow a team to sub during any dead ball when the clock is stopped. And so for consistency, this sub is allowed in HS. I would like to see an exception made to eliminate this sub opportunity.

[Kelvin green]

I agree 100%-You are exactly right saying that since clock is stopped we can sub.This is totally consistent in the current rules

Sometimes in the name of consistency we do things that are dumber for the game than write the exception or rewrite the rule..
We could be just as consistent and say you can never sub after a made basket

Another example not having a "team control" foul on a throw-in when committed by throw-in team

[jritchie]

i think the rule should say, if they are at the table before the shots, they can come in, even for the shooter after the 2nd shot...but if they report after that they can't come in till the next opportunity!!! this would allow the shooter to come out if need be and would take care of the other delay to gain an advantage! imo

now been edited, thanks!!!

[Edited by jritchie on Oct 28th, 2005 at 02:44 PM]

[Kelvin green]

You gotta use terms right.
Next dead ball?