Shoulder Push

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops


LOL...I agree totally. First off, I called no one person a rule booker. I said that I feel that some officials do not see the situation, they only see the citation. I dont know anyone personlly or their style; therefore, I would never say anything like that. Dan however did take a shot at me. He told me that if I werent ready to make the calls...of course that HE feels I should make...that maybe I shouldnt officiate. That is a shot.

Sorry Nate, you're just plain wrong again.

I never told you what calls to make.

I don't care what calls you make.

You can no-call absolutely everything as far as I'm concerned. Avoid those messy free throws, let the players decide the game, collect your money & go home early.

Unless you're on the floor with me.

Not much chance of that happening, I expect.

[Nate1224hoops]

Good call REF!!

[Smitty]

Originally posted by deecee
we can all agree that we disagree and that judjement or subjectivity is part of the game and differs from official to official -- the only thing i can take from this argument is 2 tylenol and a nap...

The fact that you and Nate seem to think severity has everything to do with whether a foul should be called is something you both need to really look at and fix about your game. Unless you are willing to learn from more experienced officials, you will not get very far in this profession.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Sorry Nate, you're just plain wrong again.

I never told you what calls to make.

I don't care what calls you make.

You can no-call absolutely everything as far as I'm concerned. Avoid those messy free throws, let the players decide the game, collect your money & go home early.

Unless you're on the floor with me.

Not much chance of that happening, I expect.

Here is exactly what you said....please check it if you cant remember::::

"Here's where else you are wrong - if the players do not or can not adjust to how the game is being called then there is nothing at all wrong with shooting free throws all game. If you aint ready to make the calls that need to be made then maybe you aint ready to referee the game."

Now that being said, you still sit there saying you didnt take a shot at me personally. You are telling me that if I a cant make the calls then I dont need to call the game. This is not for KING DAN to decide. You should refrain from comments like that. It wrong, not matter who you think you are or how right you think you are. I think my opinion is right, but you dont see me making rude, crude statements like this. I am sure the forum Moderators would agree. No reason for it, its uncalled for.

[ThickSkin]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Subjectivity is not part of reffing. Judgment is.

This has nothing to do with "having to be right." It has to do with refs working to be consistent across the country on how they call things.

WONDERFUL! I couldn't have said it better! Judgment and Consistency. Unless you are consistently bad... but that is a whole nother topic for discussion.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

Here is exactly what you said....please check it if you cant remember::::

"Here's where else you are wrong - if the players do not or can not adjust to how the game is being called then there is nothing at all wrong with shooting free throws all game. If you aint ready to make the calls that need to be made then maybe you aint ready to referee the game."

Now that being said, you still sit there saying you didnt take a shot at me personally. You are telling me that if I a cant make the calls then I dont need to call the game. This is not for KING DAN to decide. You should refrain from comments like that. It wrong, not matter who you think you are or how right you think you are. I think my opinion is right, but you dont see me making rude, crude statements like this. I am sure the forum Moderators would agree. No reason for it, its uncalled for.

You need to work on developing a thicker skin.

No wonder you don't call a lot of fouls.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

Here is exactly what you said....please check it if you cant remember::::

"Here's where else you are wrong - if the players do not or can not adjust to how the game is being called then there is nothing at all wrong with shooting free throws all game. If you aint ready to make the calls that need to be made then maybe you aint ready to referee the game."

Now that being said, you still sit there saying you didnt take a shot at me personally. You are telling me that if I a cant make the calls then I dont need to call the game. This is not for KING DAN to decide. You should refrain from comments like that. It wrong, not matter who you think you are or how right you think you are. I think my opinion is right, but you dont see me making rude, crude statements like this. I am sure the forum Moderators would agree. No reason for it, its uncalled for.

Nate, quit yer crying. He used the word "maybe" in there. Actually what Dan said is right on the money. If you can't make the calls that need to be made, you shouldn't be doing this. What's wrong with that statement? If you can't look inside yourself and realize what you can do to improve your game, you seriously should reconsider doing it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by deecee
we can all agree that we disagree and that judjement or subjectivity is part of the game and differs from official to official -- the only thing i can take from this argument is 2 tylenol and a nap...

Shut up?

And...... when did you become the moderator here?

You obviously have either missed the points that people were trying to make or you think that those points should be completely ignored. That's fine. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Please don't compound that however by trying to dictate what any else should or should not do. That's none of your business. We are entitled to our opinions too.

God, please note for the record how polite I'm being today.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
God, please note for the record how polite I'm being today.

God isn't paying attention today, he's too busy figuring out how to move that rock out of his apartment.

[ThickSkin]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
God, please note for the record how polite I'm being today.

I noticed it right from the word go this morning!!!!!

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by ThickSkin

I noticed it right from the word go this morning!!!!!

Hmmm...I noticed it right from the word Cox.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

God isn't paying attention today, he's too busy figuring out how to move that rock out of his apartment.

Or how big to make the woods for that bear.....

[Nate1224hoops]

Well, thats for your advice. Most of you that I have encountered on this site offer good objective responses. However, I have a differing opinion on this issue and dont think that my opionion should subject me to criticism that I am receiving. Thanks again for your help, I wont be back.

[Nate1224hoops]

Well, thats for your advice. Most of you that I have encountered on this site offer good objective responses. However, I have a differing opinion on this issue and dont think that my opionion should subject me to criticism that I am receiving. Thanks again for your help, I wont be back to bother again.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
You call it judgement-- I call it subjectivity...Here's the dictionary definition...JUDGEMENT based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts.

Your definition is of subjectivity, I think. Is that right?

You're saying that you think of subjectivity as judgment?

So why not call it judgment, which is what 99.9% of referees call it.

The problem I have with your statement, though is that you're saying you think judgment should be based on "impressions, feelings and opinions rather than external facts." I'm saying that judgment in refereeing is based on a very different set of ideas, those being, experience, learning, observation and training.

Here's the dictionary definition of judgment:

judg·ment v
1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

n
1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.
2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.
3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.
3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.

Refs shouldn't base their judgment on opinions, feelings and impressions. That's why there's no subjectivity. Their judgment should be based on "consideration, deliberation, distinguishing relationships, discernment, evaluating, assessing, authoritative decision." Do you see the difference?

Nate1224hoops

Well, thats for your advice. Most of you that I have encountered on this site offer good objective responses. However, I have a differing opinion on this issue and dont think that my opionion should subject me to criticism that I am receiving. Thanks again for your help, I wont be back to bother again.

Too bad, you could be a great ref someday, if you get some training and a good mentor. Working strictly from your own opinions, however, won't get you very far.

[Edited by rainmaker on Oct 27th, 2005 at 04:17 PM]