technical or out of bounds

[rocky]

alright officials try this one on for size. there is a scramble for a rebound and a player (off or defense--doesnt matter) grabs the ball under the basket but behind the backboard with no place to go. He spots an opposing player who has fallen out of bounds ---so rather than get tied up or travel or throw the ball away he chucks it at the player out of bounds laying down. I know it sounds like smart BB but i think it is crap-- what can be called here. If he would have lightly tossed it on the player that is one thing but he drilled the player. The officiate looked at me and winked and said "no rule against being smart"
help guys what is the call.

[Mark Dexter]

If it was a soft throw, or done without the intent to harm, OOB, and the thrower's team gets the ball.

Because this was a live ball situation, you either have an intentional personal or a flagrant personal foul, in my opinion.

[Mark Dexter]

Whoa, did I screw that up or what?

4-19-5b: A Technical is a noncontact foul by a player.

Yikes! I would still go for the intentional or flagrant, depending upon the severity.

[Brian Watson]

Unless he purposely drilled his head, swallow your whistle. This is just good heads up ball.

Don't go looking for something that isn't there.

[BktBallRef]

Brian is right. Whether you think it's crap or not, there's nothing illegal about the play, as long he isn't intentionally trying to hurt the opponent. The case play below is the closest thing you'll find.

10.3.8B.
A1 has the ball out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in. B1 is putting great pressure on and the count is at four seconds when A1 throws the ball and it strikes B1's face. The ball rebounds from B1's face directly out of bounds.

Ruling: The administering official will have to make a decision based upon a number of observations. Was the throw-in to B1's face purely accidental or was it a voluntary, planned act? Was the ball contact caused by the movement of the defender? Was the act of a savage nature? The administering official must be aware that players often react negatively in situations where they are frustrated or are retaliating for something which happened earlier in the game.

[dblref]

Am I missing something here? If the player grabbing the rebound (offense or defense) throws the ball at a player OOB, and you don't call a foul, the ball should go to the opposing team. The player throwing the ball was the last person to touch it inbounds and throws it OOB, then they lose possesion. Maybe I need another cup of coffee!

[rocky]

I still disagree , as a coach I am tired of seeing the games get out of control. A player of mine would be removed from the game for drilling the ball at someone laying on the floor. It is a shame that some officials still see this as a smart play. A smart play would be to toss it on the player and then help the individual up. This player drilled it at the player then walked away. Let me ask you -- is there any possible way the ball can be returned from the player on the floor back to the player inbounds ??? no so why do we think it is a must or it is okay to drill a defenseless player on floor. I believe some of you missed the boat on this one.

[Gary Brendemuehl]

Originally posted by dblref
Am I missing something here? If the player grabbing the rebound (offense or defense) throws the ball at a player OOB, and you don't call a foul, the ball should go to the opposing team. The player throwing the ball was the last person to touch it inbounds and throws it OOB, then they lose possesion. Maybe I need another cup of coffee!

Rule 7-2-2 "...If the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched by a player who is on or outside the boundary line, such player causes it to go out."

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rocky
I still disagree , as a coach I am tired of seeing the games get out of control. A player of mine would be removed from the game for drilling the ball at someone laying on the floor. It is a shame that some officials still see this as a smart play. A smart play would be to toss it on the player and then help the individual up. This player drilled it at the player then walked away. Let me ask you -- is there any possible way the ball can be returned from the player on the floor back to the player inbounds ??? no so why do we think it is a must or it is okay to drill a defenseless player on floor. I believe some of you missed the boat on this one.

You were there, we weren't. The woird "drill" isn't in the book, so it's we have to interpret what you meant. BktBallRef gave you the rule / case reference -- it might just be a smart play (that's what the officials on the court saw) or it might be something more serious.

If you've got better wording suggestions for the case, or want the rule changed, contact the NFHS or your state association.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rocky
I still disagree , as a coach I am tired of seeing the games get out of control. A player of mine would be removed from the game for drilling the ball at someone laying on the floor. It is a shame that some officials still see this as a smart play. A smart play would be to toss it on the player and then help the individual up. This player drilled it at the player then walked away. Let me ask you -- is there any possible way the ball can be returned from the player on the floor back to the player inbounds ??? no so why do we think it is a must or it is okay to drill a defenseless player on floor. I believe some of you missed the boat on this one.

Coach, you have every right (and I would agree maybe an
obligation) to pull the player for "drilling" the ball at an
OOB opponent. But as officials we do not have the
authority to penalize in this case except in the most
rare circumstance. We are responsible for making sure the
game is played within the rules, you have the responsiblity
to teach the game under *your* own code of sportsmanship.
In this respect we are partners, no? And as partners we
are both responsible for keeping the game in control.

You also asked "...why do we think it is a must or it is
okay to drill a defenseless player on floor?" I can easily
imagine a soft toss getting stolen by another
player, it can get really crowded under the basket on these
plays. As for helping the other player up, well, my first
instinct right after the drilling would be to get between
the 2 players so there's no chance of them making contact.
Believe me coach, this is how fights get started. After
the play I would find a reason to speak to you and thank
you for pulling your player.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rocky
I still disagree , as a coach I am tired of seeing the games get out of control. A player of mine would be removed from the game for drilling the ball at someone laying on the floor. It is a shame that some officials still see this as a smart play. A smart play would be to toss it on the player and then help the individual up. This player drilled it at the player then walked away.

Did you read the case play coach? If your play happened along the same lines as the case play, then the official would have to make a judgment as to whether the play was malicious.

But in the play you describe, there's certainly nothing wrong with a player throwing the ball off an opponent. Originally, you described the play as "he chucks it at the player." Now you're saying he "drilled" him with it. Did the ball hit him in the face or did it just go off his leg? And again, was it of a savage nature or a planned act to harm the opponent? I don't think any of us here would allow a flagrant act to go unpunished. But we would either have to be there to see it, or you have to give us a better desciption as to what occurred.

As for the player walking away after the play, I would think that is what we would want him to do.

Let me ask you -- is there any possible way the ball can be returned from the player on the floor back to the player inbounds ??? no so why do we think it is a must or it is okay to drill a defenseless player on floor. I believe some of you missed the boat on this one.

I'm not sure why it's important as to whether the player on the floor can return the ball to the player inbounds? I believe the intent is to throw the ball hard enough so that the player can't catch it or deflect it. Toss it at him and he may be able to get out of the way prior to it hitting him.

If you can point out the boat in the rulebook, we'll be glad to get on it!

[Brian Watson]

I used the word drilled, not the coach.

And I used it for a specific reason, if I am going to call anything other than an OOB ball, the inbound player is going to have to drill the ball at the other kids' head or onions before I call a T.

Otherwise I am not going to call anything. Whether Rocky likes that opinon or not is up to him. I have to enforce the rules as they stand and right now, unless it is savage, it is nothing. Yes the ball is thrown hard most times because the player has to. Either becuase he is about to violate or does want to give the other player time to move out of the way. This is part of the game, has been from the start, and always will be.

There are many other things in the game I would change before this.

[Edited by Brian Watson on Apr 24th, 2001 at 12:26 PM]

[WestCoastRef]

Brian, fantastic explanation.. I couldn't agree more. I have seen that play where someone is about to violate and they start looking around for options. I have never, in my judgement, seen a malicious act in this situation. I was working AAU boys this past weekend when A1 who was about to go out of bounds threw the ball back in, with force, and the ball hit B1 in the groin area.. OUCH!! A1 quickly went to apologize and everything was cool. I was on top of the play just in case and gave B1 a little extra time to compose himself and he stayed in the game. Obviously, I would not have penalize A1 even if he had not apologized. I saw a player, within the rules, trying to save possession for his/her team. He was acting within his options when he "passed" the ball.

[AK ref SE]

We as officials have to assume we know the intent of what the player was thinking when he threw the ball OOB at the player laying on the floor.
To determine if it was a flagrant act or not, we have to decide in a blink of an eye. How had the game been played to that point, has it been clean? or have the two players been battling all game? What was the players reaction when he threw the ball? Was he staring at the person OOB? Was he taking aim? WE have to decide this in a splint second? I once asked "how do I know if it is a flagrant foul or not?" If you have to think about it....it probable isn't.
So I would use the same reasoning in this situation. If I have to think about whether it was a smart play or a blatant act? My humble opinion!

AK ref SE

[Mark Padgett]

While some officials feel the charge/block call is the most difficult thing about refereeing, I feel it is trying to judge intent. Without a doubt, this is the most subjective reasoning we have to deal with.

About two years ago, I called a flagrant foul in the following situation in an adult league game. A1 had been playing "rough" all night. He already had 4 fouls, all for hard contact, and we were only in the middle of the 2nd quarter (and no - I don't know why he was still in the game). He got a rebound, looked down court then looked at B1 who was standing next to him. He then threw a two-hand long pass to no one and continued his elbow around to clock B1 in the nose. Blood was drawn. There was no doubt in my mind that he intentionally tried to injure B1. He claimed he was just passing the ball and B1 unfortunately was in the way. I tossed him, he picked up his chair and threw it and he was suspended for the rest of the season. And - this was a church league.

Usually I give the player the benefit of the doubt on intent, but not this time.