Another jump stop / hop step question...

[es0teric_cha0s]

Hello all...new to the forum and all that . Ive been trying to find some more specific info on jump stops . Ive read all the stuff I can find on here but Ive seen no mention of how you make the jump stop . I understand the rules and prinicple of the move but recently Ive been incorporating it more into my game and frequently people have tried to call me on traveling . If one is making an aggressive move to the basket with the ball(dribbling of course), picks up the ball while jumping, lands on both feet and then jumps again to shoot...does it matter how high/far one jumps before the landing ? Ive seen no rules listed here or on official rules sites like the NBAs covering that . Im no Michael Jordan in his prime but I can jump fairly well and my jump stops definitely gives me an advantage since by the time I jump past someone and then jump up again Im normally wide open . Ive been told youre only able to jump about 5 - 6 inches high off the ground during the move(before the landing and jump to shoot/pass the ball) but Ive been playing/watching basketball for years and have yet to see a rule concerning this particular part of the move . Im not one to try and cheat so I wanted to get it cleared up because if its a fair move you better believe I'll keep doing it ( as they say...if it aint broke...dont fix it ) . Thanks for the help in advance...

[BktBallRef]

I don't think you "jump past someone and then jump up again." That's why you're being called for traveling.

If you pick up the ball with one foot on the floor, you can jump off that foot and land simultaneously on both feet. If the landing isn't simultaneous, you've traveled.

There's no limit as to how high or far you jump, only that your steps and stop are within the rules.

[es0teric_cha0s]

Thanks for the reply . The move though starts with the dribble...take off jumping off of both feet...come down with both feet at the same time and immediately jump again off of both feet to shoot the ball . The travel call attempts are not directed towards the step and stop...only with the height and distance of the jump from point "A" to point "B" before jumping up at point "B" to shoot/pass . Incidentally I get alot of travel call attempts when driving to the basket...not because I do(I know how to count to 2 - even on the move) but because defenders have a hard time understanding how I went from the free throw line to the basket for a lay up with only two steps. Im 6'3 with long strides and I can jump fairly well...combine that with being able to palm the ball...and holding the ball at the outstretch of my arms...and Im right at the basket . I love playing pick up games but sometimes a ref would come in handy heh . Thanks again for answering my question .

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by es0teric_cha0s
Thanks for the reply . The move though starts with the dribble...take off jumping off of both feet...come down with both feet at the same time and immediately jump again off of both feet to shoot the ball.

If you're holding the ball when you "take off jumping off of both feet," that's traveling when you return to the floor. You can't jump off both feet while holding the ball and return to the floor. No rule in basketball allows you to do that.

The travel call attempts are not directed towards the step and stop...only with the height and distance of the jump from point "A" to point "B" before jumping up at point "B" to shoot/pass.

How high or far you jump has absolutely nothing to do with traveling.

Incidentally I get alot of travel call attempts when driving to the basket...not because I do(I know how to count to 2 - even on the move) but because defenders have a hard time understanding how I went from the free throw line to the basket for a lay up with only two steps. Im 6'3 with long strides and I can jump fairly well...combine that with being able to palm the ball...and holding the ball at the outstretch of my arms...and Im right at the basket . I love playing pick up games but sometimes a ref would come in handy heh .

Are you saying that this is happening in pickup games and the opponents are calling you for traveling? Sorry partner but I can't do anything about that. When you start having an official calling traveling on you and you want to understand the call, post again. We can't tell you anything with regards to why opponents are calling you for traveling.

How high or far you jump has absolutely nothing to do with traveling.

[JCrow]

I Coach & Ref in a YMCA Youth League. The NBA Traveling and High School Traveling Rule is very different. Kids get confused by watching NBA players stop their dribble, hop off "two" feet and land with the ball. That's Traveling in HS.

Here's a comparison of the two Rules:

Note: Catching one's own attempt is legal in HS while traveling in the NBA. Also, in the NBA.....a player can stop his dribble, land on two feet holding the ball, jump and land holding the ball and if neither foot is head of the other....PIVOT! That's way outside of the HS Rule and causes alot of arguments.

I try to teach the kids a HS move where they stop the dribble, land on one foot with he ball, jump off one foot land on two and then jump off two feet to the left or right for their shot. That's a very effective move for a kid to have but it takes a ton of practice.

NBA
Section XIV-Traveling

a. A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.

b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball. The first count occurs: (1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it. (2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultaneously after he receives the ball if both feet are off the floor when he receives it. The second occurs: (1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.

c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.

d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.

e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.

f. A player who receives the ball while standing still, or who comes to a legal stop while holding the ball, may lift the pivot foot or jump when he shoots for the goal or passes, but the ball must leave his hands before the pivot foot again touches the floor, or before either foot again touches the floor if the player has jumped.

g. In starting a dribble after receiving the ball while standing still, or after coming to a legal stop, a player may not jump before the ball leaves his hands, nor may he lift the pivot foot from the floor before the ball leaves his hands.

h. A player who leaves the floor with the ball must pass or shoot before he returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

i. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not make progress by sliding.

j. A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, rim or another player.

PENALTY: Loss of ball. The ball is awarded to the opponent at the sideline, nearest the spot of the
violation.


NFHS
(A player may legally rebound his/her own shot without traveling, even if the shot is an air-ball, as long as the release is a legitimate shot attempt in the opinion of the officials. (Case Book 4.42B).)

A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

[refTN]

Originally posted by JCrow
I Coach & Ref in a YMCA Youth League. The NBA Traveling and High School Traveling Rule is very different. Kids get confused by watching NBA players stop their dribble, hop off "two" feet and land with the ball. That's Traveling in HS.

Here's a comparison of the two Rules:

Note: Catching one's own attempt is legal in HS while traveling in the NBA. Also, in the NBA.....a player can stop his dribble, land on two feet holding the ball, jump and land holding the ball and if neither foot is head of the other....PIVOT! That's way outside of the HS Rule and causes alot of arguments.

I try to teach the kids a HS move where they stop the dribble, land on one foot with he ball, jump off one foot land on two and then jump off two feet to the left or right for their shot. That's a very effective move for a kid to have but it takes a ton of practice.

NBA
Section XIV-Traveling

a. A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.

b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball. The first count occurs: (1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it. (2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultaneously after he receives the ball if both feet are off the floor when he receives it. The second occurs: (1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.

c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.

d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.

e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.

f. A player who receives the ball while standing still, or who comes to a legal stop while holding the ball, may lift the pivot foot or jump when he shoots for the goal or passes, but the ball must leave his hands before the pivot foot again touches the floor, or before either foot again touches the floor if the player has jumped.

g. In starting a dribble after receiving the ball while standing still, or after coming to a legal stop, a player may not jump before the ball leaves his hands, nor may he lift the pivot foot from the floor before the ball leaves his hands.

h. A player who leaves the floor with the ball must pass or shoot before he returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

i. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not make progress by sliding.

j. A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, rim or another player.

PENALTY: Loss of ball. The ball is awarded to the opponent at the sideline, nearest the spot of the
violation.


NFHS
(A player may legally rebound his/her own shot without traveling, even if the shot is an air-ball, as long as the release is a legitimate shot attempt in the opinion of the officials. (Case Book 4.42B).)

A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

JCrow the NBA and HS traveling rule is not that different at all. The only reason the NBA's looks so different is because the NBA is better at setting guidelines, such as this case with the 1,2 count. The NFHS is not that good at all at setting guidelines. As far as guidelines go you ought to compare the NBA official's manual to the NFHS's. The NBA official's manual has every guideline play possible in it. If anyone can get a hold of one of these I would highly suggest it. It is full of great info. The only difference I see in the NBA traveling rule and NFHS is the consecutive hop where in the NBA you can't pick up your dribble with your right foot being on the floor and jump off your right foot.

In your note section you said a player in the NBA can stop his dribble, land on two feet holding the ball, jump and land holding the ball and if neither foot is ahead of the other..pivot. That is definitely not the case that is an easy walk call.

As far as the move you teach those kids. That is totally legal and I am proud you are teaching those kids a proper jump stop.

IMO JCROW, the NBA travel call is as pure of form traveling call as you can have, for that matter I believe NBA officiating is the purest form of officiating, because of those strict guidelines they set and put in place.

es0teric_cha0s:

If you go into your jump stop before you pick up the ball or gather the ball, you can land on any foot at anytime, but understand the first foot to hit is the pivot, because when you do that the first foot that hits, in the terms of the NBA, is the 1st part of your 1,2 count and the second foot is the second count.

If you do the same thing as stated above and you land on both feet simultaneously, that is just a 1 count and you can pivot with either foot.

Now a different scenario:
You go for your jump stop after you have already gathered the ball on the floor. You can still jump off one foot for the jump stop, but you have done used 1 count by gathering the ball on the floor, and so you have to land with both feet hitting the floor at the same time and not being able to pivot.

Most officials don't get to picky about this "did he gather right before he jumped or not" deal. I hope I have been of some help.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by refTN
In your note section you said a player in the NBA can stop his dribble, land on two feet holding the ball, jump and land holding the ball and if neither foot is ahead of the other..pivot. That is definitely not the case that is an easy walk call.

Not true. I see this play all the time in NBA games and I've NEVER see it called traveling.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Not true. I see this play all the time in NBA games and I've NEVER see it called traveling.

Well....I see traveling all the time in NBA games too and I never see it called traveling either.

[Junker]

The NBA may have the same rules, but the interpretation seems to be, if a move leads to a Sportscenter highlight and puts butts in the seats, its legal.

[refTN]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Not true. I see this play all the time in NBA games and I've NEVER see it called traveling.

You might see something close to it but you will rarely see a guy jump off two feet to start his jump stop and not get called for a walk.

[BktBallRef]

No sir, I think at 44 years of age and 30 years of watching the NBA, I pretty much know this move when I see it. I'm perfectly capable of discerning between it and "something close to it."

[Camron Rust]

The NBA most certainly does NOT have the same traveling rules. There are several scenarios that are explicity legal in the NBA that are travels in NCAA or NFHS rules.

See http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_10...av=ArticleList

In particular:

b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.
....
h. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.

This is largely the same as HS/NCAA....except for (d), (e), and (h).

In HS/NCAA the 2nd foot to land after catching the ball can never be the pivot foot. It doesn't matter where those feet land relative to each other. In the NBA it depends on the location of the feet landing...not the order of them landing.

Example: A1 jumps to catch a pass while running around a screen at the top of the key. A1 first lands on his left foot followed by his right root such that both feet are 1" behind the 3-point line. Under NCAA and NFHS rules, A1 may only pivot on the left foot. If the left foot is lifed and returned to the floor, it is a travel. In the NBA, A1 gets to choose the pivot foot.

In (h), it is a travel in the NCAA and college to fall to the floor while holding the ball, advantage or not, sliding or not. NBA allows the player to fall, in some cases, without violation.

[refTN]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
The NBA most certainly does NOT have the same traveling rules. There are several scenarios that are explicity legal in the NBA that are travels in NCAA or NFHS rules.

See http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_10...av=ArticleList

In particular:

b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.
....
h. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.

This is largely the same as HS/NCAA....except for (d), (e), and (h).

In HS/NCAA the 2nd foot to land after catching the ball can never be the pivot foot. It doesn't matter where those feet land relative to each other. In the NBA it depends on the location of the feet landing...not the order of them landing.

Example: A1 jumps to catch a pass while running around a screen at the top of the key. A1 first lands on his left foot followed by his right root such that both feet are 1" behind the 3-point line. Under NCAA and NFHS rules, A1 may only pivot on the left foot. If the left foot is lifed and returned to the floor, it is a travel. In the NBA, A1 gets to choose the pivot foot.

In (h), it is a travel in the NCAA and college to fall to the floor while holding the ball, advantage or not, sliding or not. NBA allows the player to fall, in some cases, without violation.

Apparently NBA.com hasn't changed its rulebook in a while, because nowhere in the 04-05 rulebook do I see d and e. In this respect it is called just like HS, there has to be no determination of what foot is in advance of what foot. Like I said in an earlier post, the rules by the NBA just have very well wrote, explained, and thorough guidelines and the NFHS rulebook does not. I believe if the NFHS rulebook was wrote with this two count philosophy it would be easier for refs to discern what is and is not a travel.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN

[/B]

In this respect it is called just like HS, there has to be no determination of what foot is in advance of what foot. Like I said in an earlier post, the rules by the NBA just have very well wrote, explained, and thorough guidelines and the NFHS rulebook does not. I believe if the NFHS rulebook was wrote with this two count philosophy it would be easier for refs to discern what is and is not a travel. [/B][/QUOTE]That's completely wrong. There is very little in the NBA that is called like high school, and traveling sureashell isn't one of them. Hell, they don't even call traveling in the NBA by their own freaking rules and guidelines. Patrick Ewing, for one, traveled on his patented little move across the middle his whole career, and he got away with it because he was,well,Patrick Ewing. The NBA may well have written guidelines but they sureashell don't follow their own written guidelines. There's absolutely no consistency that I can see when it comes to calling traveling.

The NBA is entertainment. High school is still about learning to do fundamentals legally. Iow, different philosophies for different rules. Most experienced high school officials don't have any problems at all with calling traveling consistently and properly.

[refTN]

IMO high school officials aren't consistent with calling travels at all(I put myself in this group as well). We call way too many travels when indeed they weren't travels at all. At least NBA officials don't screw the offense by making a call that never should have been. In high school, it seems to me that if a official THINKS it was a travel he/she calls it a travel. NBA officials have to KNOW it was a travel. I can't help but back the NBA officials I am kind of parcial to them.