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Adam Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:56pm
Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Stripes33
Has anyone ever called a violation for striking the ball with a fist. Called it two seasons ago on a player who blatantly punched a ball trying to stop it from going OB on the sideline. Coach thought it was a joke. Showed him the rulebook after the game and he said he had never heard of it in his 20 years of coaching.
AAU game last spring. Had a girl swing with the fist and miss the ball, ended up hitting the other girl on the collar bone. Called a foul and told her not to use her fist, or it would be an intentional. Coach is chirping about calling a cheap foul until I informed him of the fist. Didn't hear a word from him the rest of the game.

Dan_ref Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:38pm
Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Snaqwells
Quote:
Originally posted by Stripes33
Has anyone ever called a violation for striking the ball with a fist. Called it two seasons ago on a player who blatantly punched a ball trying to stop it from going OB on the sideline. Coach thought it was a joke. Showed him the rulebook after the game and he said he had never heard of it in his 20 years of coaching.
AAU game last spring. Had a girl swing with the fist and miss the ball, ended up hitting the other girl on the collar bone. Called a foul and told her not to use her fist, or it would be an intentional. Coach is chirping about calling a cheap foul until I informed him of the fist. Didn't hear a word from him the rest of the game.
So you whistle A1 for winding up & punching B1 on the collar bone & Coach A complains about a cheap foul??

Tough buncha kids you got there.

ranjo Mon Sep 12, 2005 03:22pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by ranjo
I was told a story by a D-1 ref who had a player <font color = red>dunk a ball that went thru the basket</font>, hit the player on the head, and bounced back up thru the basket and off the rim. He and both of his partners assumed the player had simply missed the dunk, until 7:00 a.m. the next morning when their supervisor called to ask how in the world could three officials of their caliber miss a basket interference call. It was a close ACC game and the call could have made the difference between a Win or Loss.

Good story but it's not quite right and the rule interpretation is wrong.

As described, your play is <b>not</b> basket interference under either NCAA or FED rules. If the dunk hadda went completely <b>thru</b> the basket before it hit the player on the head, as you said, the shot would have already been ended... the bucket would count... and the ball would now be dead. BI cannot be committed on a dead ball and the subsequent touching by the dunker after the ball went though the net is ignored.

In the actual play, the ball had <b>not</b> cleared the mesh when it hit the dunker's head. As soon as the ball that was still partially in the net touched the player's head, that should have been basket interference and the BI would cause the ball to be dead immediately. No player can legally touch a ball until it has completely cleared the mesh.
Jurassic Referee - You are absolutely correct - I screwed up a couple of critical details. I take it you had some knowledge of this play happening.

Jurassic Referee Mon Sep 12, 2005 03:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by ranjo
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by ranjo
I was told a story by a D-1 ref who had a player <font color = red>dunk a ball that went thru the basket</font>, hit the player on the head, and bounced back up thru the basket and off the rim. He and both of his partners assumed the player had simply missed the dunk, until 7:00 a.m. the next morning when their supervisor called to ask how in the world could three officials of their caliber miss a basket interference call. It was a close ACC game and the call could have made the difference between a Win or Loss.

Good story but it's not quite right and the rule interpretation is wrong.

As described, your play is <b>not</b> basket interference under either NCAA or FED rules. If the dunk hadda went completely <b>thru</b> the basket before it hit the player on the head, as you said, the shot would have already been ended... the bucket would count... and the ball would now be dead. BI cannot be committed on a dead ball and the subsequent touching by the dunker after the ball went though the net is ignored.

In the actual play, the ball had <b>not</b> cleared the mesh when it hit the dunker's head. As soon as the ball that was still partially in the net touched the player's head, that should have been basket interference and the BI would cause the ball to be dead immediately. No player can legally touch a ball until it has completely cleared the mesh.
Jurassic Referee - You are absolutely correct - I screwed up a couple of critical details. I take it you had some knowledge of this play happening.
Yup, this exact play came up in a thread here when it happened iirc. We had a good discussion on it at that time too. I thought it happened in an NBA game though....which tells you a lot about my memory.

M&M Guy Mon Sep 12, 2005 04:15pm
Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Well.....slow day,Slappy....let me run this by y'alls...

A player is out-of-bounds for throw-in after a made basket....he then fists or kicks the ball in-bounds to a teammate....violation? Ignore? Smack him upside the head?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 9th, 2005 at 04:27 PM]
Ok, when you're talking slow, are you talking about me? Even though I like option 3, isn't option 1 (violation) the only choice? What am I missing?

BBall_Junkie Mon Sep 12, 2005 04:28pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by ranjo
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by ranjo
I was told a story by a D-1 ref who had a player <font color = red>dunk a ball that went thru the basket</font>, hit the player on the head, and bounced back up thru the basket and off the rim. He and both of his partners assumed the player had simply missed the dunk, until 7:00 a.m. the next morning when their supervisor called to ask how in the world could three officials of their caliber miss a basket interference call. It was a close ACC game and the call could have made the difference between a Win or Loss.

Good story but it's not quite right and the rule interpretation is wrong.

As described, your play is <b>not</b> basket interference under either NCAA or FED rules. If the dunk hadda went completely <b>thru</b> the basket before it hit the player on the head, as you said, the shot would have already been ended... the bucket would count... and the ball would now be dead. BI cannot be committed on a dead ball and the subsequent touching by the dunker after the ball went though the net is ignored.

In the actual play, the ball had <b>not</b> cleared the mesh when it hit the dunker's head. As soon as the ball that was still partially in the net touched the player's head, that should have been basket interference and the BI would cause the ball to be dead immediately. No player can legally touch a ball until it has completely cleared the mesh.
Jurassic Referee - You are absolutely correct - I screwed up a couple of critical details. I take it you had some knowledge of this play happening.
Yup, this exact play came up in a thread here when it happened iirc. We had a good discussion on it at that time too. I thought it happened in an NBA game though....which tells you a lot about my memory.
Happened in the Sweet 16 game this year (I happened to be in attendance, as a spectator of course :) )between Duke and Michigan State. Sheldon Williams on a break away dunk had the ball bounce off of his head back out the top before passing completely through the net. They intially ruled incorrectly scoring the basket, but got together and talked about it and ended up ruling correctly. Much to my chagrin (sp?). I was in Fanboy mode at the time, and then had to explain to all my uneducated fanboy brethren around me at the game that they did actually get it right. I think I convinced a grand total of zero people :D

rainmaker Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:07am
Quote:
Originally posted by BBall_Junkie
Much to my chagrin (sp?). I was in Fanboy mode at the time, and then had to explain to all my uneducated fanboy brethren around me at the game that they did actually get it right. I think I convinced a grand total of zero people :D
And that's different from when you're working on the floor...?? (cheese-eating grin)

BBall_Junkie Tue Sep 13, 2005 08:02am
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by BBall_Junkie
Much to my chagrin (sp?). I was in Fanboy mode at the time, and then had to explain to all my uneducated fanboy brethren around me at the game that they did actually get it right. I think I convinced a grand total of zero people :D
And that's different from when you're working on the floor...?? (cheese-eating grin)
Yes. Because depending on the crew size, I can usually convince either one or two people :D

rainmaker Tue Sep 13, 2005 08:18am
Quote:
Originally posted by BBall_Junkie
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by BBall_Junkie
Much to my chagrin (sp?). I was in Fanboy mode at the time, and then had to explain to all my uneducated fanboy brethren around me at the game that they did actually get it right. I think I convinced a grand total of zero people :D
And that's different from when you're working on the floor...?? (cheese-eating grin)
Yes. Because depending on the crew size, I can usually convince either one or two people :D
Wow! You're a better liar than me!

Jurassic Referee Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:13am
Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

A player is out-of-bounds for throw-in after a made basket....he then fists or kicks the ball in-bounds to a teammate....violation? Ignore? Smack him upside the head?
Even though I like option 3, isn't option 1 (violation) the only choice? What am I missing?
Oh? If the player throwing the ball in travelled, would you call that too?

Just asking. :)

M&M Guy Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:21am
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Oh? If the player throwing the ball in travelled, would you call that too?

Just asking. :)
No, I would use option 1 on you. (Maybe more than once...)

Was this a discussion from the past I missed?

Jurassic Referee Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:37am
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Oh? If the player throwing the ball in travelled, would you call that too?

Just asking. :)
No, I would use option 1 on you. (Maybe more than once...)

Was this a discussion from the past I missed?
Nope, it's an honest question put out for discussion on my part.

If a player throwing the ball in did so by kicking it or punching it, is it a legal throw-in?

You've already said it's a violation.

Btw, hopefully everyone already knows that a player throwing the ball in can't be called for traveling.

M&M Guy Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:22am
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, hopefully everyone already knows that a player throwing the ball in can't be called for traveling.
Isn't that one of the Basketball Rules Fundamentals? I believe it says the traveling and dribble rules do not apply during throw-ins, free throws, and jump balls. I sure hope everyone reads that section.

So, I guess using that basis, then other rules do apply during throw-ins, such as not being able to intentionally strike the ball with the leg or fist.

Now, I can see that happening right after volleyball season ends - the star server joins the basketball squad, and promptly "serves" the ball to her teammate from OOB. I blow the whistle and immediately call her for excessive lift, and the other team gets the serve, er, I mean the throw-in.

Jurassic Referee Tue Sep 13, 2005 02:01pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, hopefully everyone already knows that a player throwing the ball in can't be called for traveling.
Isn't that one of the Basketball Rules Fundamentals? I believe it says the traveling and dribble rules do not apply during throw-ins, free throws, and jump balls. I sure hope everyone reads that section.

So, I guess using that basis, then other rules do apply during throw-ins, such as not being able to intentionally strike the ball with the leg or fist.
Yup, the Basketball Rules Fundamentals certainly does say that travelling and dribbling violations do not apply during throw-ins, but those Fundamentals also don't mention kicking or punching the ball as being exempt also. And...R9-4 sez that a player cannot <b>travel</b> with the ball, kick it or strike it with a fist. And.....R9-2 lists throw-in violations, but also specifically does not list traveling, kicking the ball, punching the ball or double-dribbles as being throw-in violations.

So.....if M&M sez to JR that kicking or punching the ball by the thrower <b>is</b> a violation, and JR asks for a rules citation to back that statement up, what does M&M say?

And.... if JR sez to M&M that kicking or punching the ball by the thrower <b>isn't</b> a violation, and M&M asks JR for a rules citation to back <b>his</b> statement up, what does JR now say?

Fun, eh? :D

Where's NevadaRef when you need him?

M&M Guy Tue Sep 13, 2005 02:43pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, hopefully everyone already knows that a player throwing the ball in can't be called for traveling.
Isn't that one of the Basketball Rules Fundamentals? I believe it says the traveling and dribble rules do not apply during throw-ins, free throws, and jump balls. I sure hope everyone reads that section.

So, I guess using that basis, then other rules do apply during throw-ins, such as not being able to intentionally strike the ball with the leg or fist.
Yup, the Basketball Rules Fundamentals certainly does say that travelling and dribbling violations do not apply during throw-ins, but those Fundamentals also don't mention kicking or punching the ball as being exempt also. And...R9-4 sez that a player cannot <b>travel</b> with the ball, kick it or strike it with a fist. And.....R9-2 lists throw-in violations, but also specifically does not list traveling, kicking the ball, punching the ball or double-dribbles as being throw-in violations.

So.....if M&M sez to JR that kicking or punching the ball by the thrower <b>is</b> a violation, and JR asks for a rules citation to back that statement up, what does M&M say?

And.... if JR sez to M&M that kicking or punching the ball by the thrower <b>isn't</b> a violation, and M&M asks JR for a rules citation to back <b>his</b> statement up, what does JR now say?

Fun, eh? :D

Where's NevadaRef when you need him?
Ow...my head hurts. I'm sure Nevadaref will show up at some point with his warped, leagalistic approach.

So, if M&M sez it's a violation, all he'd have to do is point to 9-4, and everyone will nod their heads in agreement. Right? Hear that? I even hear people nodding their heads right now (it's that rattling sound...unless it's just coming from my head...). Then he would point to the Rules Fundamental that says only traveling and dribble rules don't apply to throw-ins. So, by simplistic logic, the rest still apply. Then, to dramatically prove his point, with the symphony going to cresendo in the background, he would then make the statement, "So, if it doesn't specifically prohibit kicking the ball during the throw-in, then surely it doesn't prohibit the player from giving the ref the finger as well." The crowd goes, "Ooooohh!" M&M then sits back down, with a smile on face, knowing he once again wins the case.

Well, at least that's how it works in my little head. Remember, later on in the same dream he's at the ticket office purchasing Cub World Series tickets.


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