Have we already argued about this? I don't care. I'm bored!!

When the ball goes up through the bottom of the net, it's a violation. But exactly how far up does the ball have to go for it to be called? Does it have to completely go above the ring? or is just part way through the ring enough? Does any of the ball have to go above the ring, or will part way up the net do it?

hmm
 

does it matter if its a basketball or a soccerball?

SECTION 4 TRAVEL, KICK, FIST
A player shall not travel with the ball, as in 4-43, intentionally kick it, as in 4-29, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.

For my money, pass through means entirely through, so it'd have to pop up entirely above the rim.

Naw, that ain't true at all. It's legal for a ball to go up through the bottom of the net as long as the ball doesn't pass <b>completely</b> through the basket while doing so. "Completely" is the key word; the whole ball has to go above the basket ring from below in order to have a violation. Rule 9-4 and case book play 9.4. The "basket" is defined in R1-10-1.

Of course, Nevada is gonna show up sometime and tell us about one certain play that will never occur- in my lifetime anyway---> if a ball gets tangled inside the net and the ball <b>and</b> net somehow then both go above the ring. Nevada will tell you that one isn't a violation according to a strict reading of the rule. Might happen too sometime...in an alternate universe. So.....be nice and humor him. :)

(sarcasm font ON)

I can't think of any advantage gained by this, so I just won't whistle it. I'll just tell the players to be careful not to do it again. Like a lot of us do with the 3 second violation.

If the ball goes up through the ring, completely, then back down through the ring, I guess then I'd need to actually make the call.

(sarcasm font OFF)

I agree with BITS. I figure the rule was to prevent counting a score from someone shooting up through the ring and back through. If the ball doesn't go above the ring, no chance it can be counted as a score, so no violation.

I have seen balls tipped and hit the net or ring, but never through the ring. I treat it just as I do when a pass sails into the backboard, just let it go.

(I couldn't decide which reply I liked better)

I've seen this 2-3 times over the years. Gotta pass all the way through to be a violation. I agree with Hartsy in that it's probably to prevent a score from under the ring.

Yep, the rule is just there to prevent counting a hoop that went in the basket after it had passed through from below. As long as it doesn't go all the way through, we play on. I've had a few games where it's rattled around, but never one where it went all the way through.

Z

I was told a story by a D-1 ref who had a player dunk a ball that went thru the basket, hit the player on the head, and bounced back up thru the basket and off the rim. He and both of his partners assumed the player had simply missed the dunk, until 7:00 a.m. the next morning when their supervisor called to ask how in the world could three officials of their caliber miss a basket interference call. It was a close ACC game and the call could have made the difference between a Win or Loss.

As the big guys keep telling us in camps - The tape doesn't lie, you have to beat the tape.

BI?

How so?

Good story but it's not quite right and the rule interpretation is wrong.

As described, your play is <b>not</b> basket interference under either NCAA or FED rules. If the dunk hadda went completely <b>thru</b> the basket before it hit the player on the head, as you said, the shot would have already been ended... the bucket would count... and the ball would now be dead. BI cannot be committed on a dead ball and the subsequent touching by the dunker after the ball went though the net is ignored.

In the actual play, the ball had <b>not</b> cleared the mesh when it hit the dunker's head. As soon as the ball that was still partially in the net touched the player's head, that should have been basket interference and the BI would cause the ball to be dead immediately. No player can legally touch a ball until it has completely cleared the mesh.

Striking the ball with Fist
 

Has anyone ever called a violation for striking the ball with a fist. Called it two seasons ago on a player who blatantly punched a ball trying to stop it from going OB on the sideline. Coach thought it was a joke. Showed him the rulebook after the game and he said he had never heard of it in his 20 years of coaching.

Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Hmmm. Chances are it wasn't the only rule that fit that description.

Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

I've seen it once, at a aau game.

I didn't realize I saw a violation until the play was done, other team got the ball anyway so no biggie.

Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Well.....slow day,Slappy....let me run this by y'alls...

A player is out-of-bounds for throw-in after a made basket....he then fists or kicks the ball in-bounds to a teammate....violation? Ignore? Smack him upside the head?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 9th, 2005 at 04:27 PM]

:)


:D

Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

AAU game last spring. Had a girl swing with the fist and miss the ball, ended up hitting the other girl on the collar bone. Called a foul and told her not to use her fist, or it would be an intentional. Coach is chirping about calling a cheap foul until I informed him of the fist. Didn't hear a word from him the rest of the game.

Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

So you whistle A1 for winding up & punching B1 on the collar bone & Coach A complains about a cheap foul??

Tough buncha kids you got there.

Jurassic Referee - You are absolutely correct - I screwed up a couple of critical details. I take it you had some knowledge of this play happening.

Yup, this exact play came up in a thread here when it happened iirc. We had a good discussion on it at that time too. I thought it happened in an NBA game though....which tells you a lot about my memory.

Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Ok, when you're talking slow, are you talking about me? Even though I like option 3, isn't option 1 (violation) the only choice? What am I missing?

Happened in the Sweet 16 game this year (I happened to be in attendance, as a spectator of course :) )between Duke and Michigan State. Sheldon Williams on a break away dunk had the ball bounce off of his head back out the top before passing completely through the net. They intially ruled incorrectly scoring the basket, but got together and talked about it and ended up ruling correctly. Much to my chagrin (sp?). I was in Fanboy mode at the time, and then had to explain to all my uneducated fanboy brethren around me at the game that they did actually get it right. I think I convinced a grand total of zero people :D

And that's different from when you're working on the floor...?? (cheese-eating grin)

Yes. Because depending on the crew size, I can usually convince either one or two people :D

Wow! You're a better liar than me!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Oh? If the player throwing the ball in travelled, would you call that too?

Just asking. :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

No, I would use option 1 on you. (Maybe more than once...)

Was this a discussion from the past I missed?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Nope, it's an honest question put out for discussion on my part.

If a player throwing the ball in did so by kicking it or punching it, is it a legal throw-in?

You've already said it's a violation.

Btw, hopefully everyone already knows that a player throwing the ball in can't be called for traveling.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Isn't that one of the Basketball Rules Fundamentals? I believe it says the traveling and dribble rules do not apply during throw-ins, free throws, and jump balls. I sure hope everyone reads that section.

So, I guess using that basis, then other rules do apply during throw-ins, such as not being able to intentionally strike the ball with the leg or fist.

Now, I can see that happening right after volleyball season ends - the star server joins the basketball squad, and promptly "serves" the ball to her teammate from OOB. I blow the whistle and immediately call her for excessive lift, and the other team gets the serve, er, I mean the throw-in.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Yup, the Basketball Rules Fundamentals certainly does say that travelling and dribbling violations do not apply during throw-ins, but those Fundamentals also don't mention kicking or punching the ball as being exempt also. And...R9-4 sez that a player cannot <b>travel</b> with the ball, kick it or strike it with a fist. And.....R9-2 lists throw-in violations, but also specifically does not list traveling, kicking the ball, punching the ball or double-dribbles as being throw-in violations.

So.....if M&M sez to JR that kicking or punching the ball by the thrower <b>is</b> a violation, and JR asks for a rules citation to back that statement up, what does M&M say?

And.... if JR sez to M&M that kicking or punching the ball by the thrower <b>isn't</b> a violation, and M&M asks JR for a rules citation to back <b>his</b> statement up, what does JR now say?

Fun, eh? :D

Where's NevadaRef when you need him?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Ow...my head hurts. I'm sure Nevadaref will show up at some point with his warped, leagalistic approach.

So, if M&M sez it's a violation, all he'd have to do is point to 9-4, and everyone will nod their heads in agreement. Right? Hear that? I even hear people nodding their heads right now (it's that rattling sound...unless it's just coming from my head...). Then he would point to the Rules Fundamental that says only traveling and dribble rules don't apply to throw-ins. So, by simplistic logic, the rest still apply. Then, to dramatically prove his point, with the symphony going to cresendo in the background, he would then make the statement, "So, if it doesn't specifically prohibit kicking the ball during the throw-in, then surely it doesn't prohibit the player from giving the ref the finger as well." The crowd goes, "Ooooohh!" M&M then sits back down, with a smile on face, knowing he once again wins the case.

Well, at least that's how it works in my little head. Remember, later on in the same dream he's at the ticket office purchasing Cub World Series tickets.

Are you sure? One time I saw an official blow a whistle during a throw-in, then he used the traveling signal. (tic)

I saw the exact same thing in an NCAA game that I was watching last year. There was a "spot" violation on a designated spot throw-in and the official used the traveling signal instead when he called it. Right call--wrong signal.

I've seen several officials in our area use the travel signal as well, and I think that helps perpetuate the myth that you can travel during a throw-in. Isn't the proper signal just the open-palm? What else do other people do to communicate what actually happened? Does this fall in the same category as the free-throw rim violation, where some people tend to use the "swirlie" (or is it "swirly"?), instead of just the open palm?

I've seen several officials in our area use the travel signal as well, and I think that helps perpetuate the myth that you can travel during a throw-in. Isn't the proper signal just the open-palm? What else do other people do to communicate what actually happened? [/B][/QUOTE]Signal #2-open palm- "stop clock"........actually the open palm is to show that the clock remains stopped........followed by signal #25- "free throw,<b>designated spot</b>, or other violation".

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 13th, 2005 at 06:25 PM]

Striking the ball with Fist
 

I only responded to JR's posting of this earlier in the thread with a smiley because I thought that he was poking a little fun at me due to this prior thread: http://www.officialforum.com/thread/20685

I didn't think that he was asking a serious question!
How I feel about this play is well stated there.

Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

Whoa, there Tiny Tim..........

If I read that other thread right, you're saying that a kicked ball is a violation on a throw-in and you're citing R9-4 to back up your statement. Right? Now.....R9-4 also says that it's a violation to travel with the ball....which we know <b>isn't</b> applicable on a throw-in. So.....are you still saying that R9-4 is the definitive citation as to what is illegal on a throw-in?

Would I poke a little fun at you? Or M&M? Perish the thought!

Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

(sniff...sniff)

I'm disappointed that you would intentionally poke fun at me. My feelings are hurt. :(

Ok, I'm over it. After all, I've had 40+ years of being a Cub fan to toughen me up! :p

Anyway, back to the popcorn-tossing. I thought Rule 9 was about violations and penalties; in other words, what is considered a violation and then how do you penalize it. So, in 9-4, even though it mentions traveling, kicking the ball, striking it with the fist, and causing the ball to go thru the basket from below, I didn't think these violations were part of a specific "group", where if one is allowed, then they all are. The rule just mentions this list of violations, with the penalty being the ball becomes dead and the spot throw-in is awarded to the other team nearest the violation. So, when the Rules Fundementals say you the dribble (4-15) or traveling (4-43) rules don't apply, it doesn't say 9-4 as a whole doesn't apply. So, if you say 9-4 doesn't apply, then you would allow the player to throw the ball direct from OOB thru the basket from below?

(There's that orchestra and cresendo again...)

Re: Re: Re: Striking the ball with Fist
 

She didn't really wind up so much, from his angle it didn't look like a lot more than a standard swipe at the ball. It was early, though, and he'd been barking a bit at me and my rookie partner. My only regret is that I chewed his as$ in front of the entire gym rather than stop the clock (running clock games) and call a coach's conference. But it worked, so I don't regret it too much. :)