Reffing women's basketball

[womens_hoops]

Hi all, I'm a frequent lurker but only occasional poster. I also run a website for women's basketball. I have a question about reffing in the women's games generally, and wondering if you all have any thoughts.

I'm wondering if there's a disparity between men's and women's basketball refs, and if so, what the cause is.

When I watch men's hoops (D1 and the NBA), I'm almost always impressed with the high-quality officiating. It's a treat to watch guys like Dick Bavetta and Danny Crawford do their job.

When I watch women's hoops... well, I don't get quite the same feeling. Obviously, there are great refs on our side too, and the quality is pretty good, etc. etc... but it seems like it's not as good as on the men's side.

I don't really mean this to be a political question, like women get unfair treatment, and so on. I'm just wondering what the differences are between the two reffing pools.

I remember someone saying something here awhile ago about how it's much easier to get a job reffing women's college than it is to get a job on the men's side. Is that true?

Do refs on the women's side generally have less experience? Does reffing women pay less? Is it just considered less prestigious? Is the NCAA too focused on hiring female refs, and bypassing more qualified male candidates?

I hesitate to ask this for fear that I might offend, and if you think I'm crazy, just say so. But I mean this as a serious question, and it seems like you guys are more likely to know the answer than anyone else.

[TriggerMN]

The responses to this thread will offend somebody, no matter what. That's just the way society is today. Sometimes people are afraid to speak their mind today for a number of reasons.

I'll say this and leave it at that...in our association there are about 10 people who officiate women at the college level, and 1 who officiates men at the college level. At least in our geographical area, it seems that it's easier to break in on the women's side.

[mick]

From my general observations (specifically noting individual exceptions) of officials in the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference [GLIAC DII - Michigan to Kentucky], men's officials are more crisp with mechanics, and more professional in presence than women's officials.

And yes, the waiting period to get on the mens' staff is longer than joining the womens' staff. Same assignor for both staffs.
mick

[Ref in PA]

I will give you my observations of my chapter. I do boys and girls HS officiating. On the girls side, there seems to be a little less experience and ego, but more willingness to learn. There is a perception that Boys Varsity is "where it is at". We also have refs who only do boys games for whatever reason. But we have vasity refs who do a poor job on both the boys side and girls side.

In my chapter I have observed that a female ref will be on the "fast track" to getting girls varsity games and sometimes the inexperience shows. In fact I observed this with some of the girls playoff games. Maybe that is sour grapes on my part, but I did observe a couple games (as an impartial observer - I was there to watch other refs in my chapter) which I thought the reffing was sub-par, especially for a playoff game (maybe the whole crew, one female and two males, had a bad game or maybe it is who you know).

One last thing to note, most schools pay the same for boys and girls but there are some who pay less for girls.

Now I realize this was a question for NCAA and Pro ball, but since you are asking the question, I have observe similar tendencies on the HS level.

[womens_hoops]

Now I realize this was a question for NCAA and Pro ball, but since you are asking the question, I have observe similar tendencies on the HS level. [/B]

no, I very much appreciate the insights about the HS level also, because I think probably some of the same issues run throughout the different levels. Thanks much for the response, and I'd love to hear more of what others have experienced...

[bannind]

Schools have to pay the same for women's and men. I think that goes back to title 9. I would not want to be the administration at any school that did not pay the same for women's as they do for men's - that is just asking for a beatdown.

As for the difference in officials, I would have to say it is a different game and that draws different types of officials. I know for myself in the HS ranks, I get more 'ampd' up for a men's game than I do for a women's game. However, I always try to remind myself that each game deserves the absolute best I have in terms of judgement, mechanics and game management - regardless of if it is a women's or men's game. Women's games are usually officiated differently than men's games, because it is a different game - not better or worse, but different. Women's games are usually called a little tighter than men's, because no-one likes to see their little girl getting bumped around. That difference alone will usually slow down a game and make it difficult for some officials to stay together on how they are calling the game and how they are managing the game. Of course, there are execptions to everything I just said - as there are really amazing women's teams and there are really crappy men's games that I dread when I get my schedule.

As for female officials, they are fast tracked. I am not complaining or saying it is right or wrong. But at least in my area, if you are a female and can call a game with any sort of consistency, you will move up faster than men. If you wanted too you could even scrutinize it further that attractive female officials move even faster up the ranks - but that is a function of society. However, with that said, once they get to whatever level they are trying to get too - it will sort itself out usually. Being a female official might open certain doors quicker for you, but to stay in the upper tiers any official has to show the ability to belong there.

As for prestige, yes there is a little more 'juice' with the men's than the women's. Again, I think it is just the way it is, not right or wrong just life.

So that is my 2 cents - hopefully I haven't offended anyone with my comments.

thanks,
dan

[womens_hoops]

Originally posted by bannind
Schools have to pay the same for women's and men. I think that goes back to title 9.

I was actually wondering about that. Like at the college level, schools themselves are subject to Title IX, but the NCAA (for most purposes) is not, because it doesn't directly receive fed fund. I'm not sure about conferences. Who is it that actually pays the refs? Schools for non-conf games, conferences for conf games, and the NCAA for tourneys?

I assume there's a huge difference in the pay between NBA and WNBA refs. I had thought that NBA refs made a lot of money, like mid-six figures. The WNBA couldn't pay that much, in part because it would be about 10 times what the players make!

[LepTalBldgs]

In our unit it is a widely held belief that good female officials advance significantly faster than men. We have seen women officials be picked up to do women's college a lot quicker than men's officials being picked up for either gender college ball.

To answer your questions specifically:

In our unit we have good officials doing both genders, but the men doing women's basketball are generally not as crisp in their mechanics or as athletic as the top men's officials.

There is no disparity of pay.

It is possible your perception of disparity relates to "the look" of athleticism.

There are some in our unit who perceive women's bball as less prestigious.

I can't tell you what the NCAA is telling their assignors regarding gender issues. But during camps this summer we were told it is generally easier to break into women's compared to men's for male officials. We were also told it is far far easier for a good female official to get in than a male.

[Grail]

Unfortuntately there is often a negative stigma associated with working Girls games.

I recently attended a state-required clinic (Illinois requires 1 every 3 years). I am entering my 4th season and hoping to get some varsity games this year. I had a very poor night during this clinic. After receiving my critique from the evaluator/assignor, I was told to work hard, or forever be labeled a "GIRLS" official.

However, I will say this, I find the Girls Varisty HS game to be slower paced than the Boys game. In theory it should make those games a little easier to officiate for a newer official. In fact, 2 of my 3 assignors have shown the progression for officials to be Boys and Girls Underclass games (all one group), Girls Varsity, and finally Boys Varsity.

Is my perception correct? Probably not completely. Maybe it's just my view, but with my first 2 Varsity games, that though might make me a little more comfortable. It is definitely true that my assignors view the Girls game as being beneath the Boys game. The above "promotion curve" shows that.

[womens_hoops]

Does anyone know if there is a similar typical progression in the college ranks? As in: do some officials start on the women's side, then "move up" to the men's game?

[bigwhistle]

It is now more of a situation where officials have to choose their career path when entering the collegiate ranks. You do not see much crossover from one side to the other, except in small (below D1) conferences where it makes geographic sense to have the same people call on both sides of the ledger. There is a very small number of supervisors at higher levels who might consider trying to lure someone from the other side to come work for them.

As others have said, women have a must faster track to move up and men, and minorities have an even greater opportunity to get hired.

On the court, the egos are usually larger on the men's side, since it considered by the majority of fans to be the more important game. The mechanics, however, are usually better overall on the women's side, as individuality is somewhat frowned upon. The women's game is also much more progressive in mechanics changes, as they adopt the professional philosophy quicker than the men's powers-that-be. If you look back at most new mechanics over the last 10 years, they move from the women's side to the men's side and then eventually down into the high school ranks.

[JRutledge]

I was given varsity girl's games before I was even given a shot at boy's varsity basketball. The same applied to college ball. I was given a shot at Women's basketball before I was given a shot at the Men's side. The reality in my area is there are fewer slots for Men's basketball. There are more officials that make themselves available it seems for the Men's side. So that means more competition and for a select number of spots. It seems like the officials that work Women's basketball are mostly older men and a lot of women. The women get much more opportunities from what I see on the Women's side of college basketball. I am not going to get into the why because it would just be my opinion only. I just know that I have had to struggle to get picked in certain Men's conferences, where I was offered Women's basketball without even going to a camp. I hope everyone takes this as just one opinion from one person and not and end all be all statement to every area. I am sure there are places this is very different.

Peace

[devdog69]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I am not going to get into the why because it would just be my opinion only. Peace

Wow! What did I miss?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by womens_hoops
When I watch men's hoops (D1 and the NBA), I'm almost always impressed with the high-quality officiating. It's a treat to watch guys like Dick Bavetta and Danny Crawford do their job.

I beleive that's because these men have years of experience officiating NBA basketball. I beleive Bavetta is the longest tenured official in the league. If you watched the NBA Finals, then you saw the officials that the NBA considers to be the best officials in the league. Certainly, all these mean possess the same qualities as Dick and Danny.

Most WNBA officials also work either NBDL or D1 women's basketball. Many are young officials who are still growing with the game. The NBA has used the WNBA and the NBDL as developmental programs. It served them well but that's another reason that the officials you see in the WNBA aren't as seasoned as the Danny Crawfords of the world.

Is that what you're looking for?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by womens_hoops
Does anyone know if there is a similar typical progression in the college ranks? As in: do some officials start on the women's side, then "move up" to the men's game?

From what I have been told by some top college officials is that once you go men or women that you are labeled as such. I don't know first hand if this is the truth, I would say that men's basketball is more demanding and requires you to be a better official. I think people view men's as more exciting and harder to work. Since they view it as such, more people want to do mens so only the top officials are selected to work mens side. Also men's basketball is harder to officiate, the players are faster, stronger and generally more talented. I'm not trying to offend anyone but that's just the straight up truth. But as above, I know officials work NBDL and WNBA in hopes to advance to the NBA.