interesting play!

[tjones1]

Originally posted by Love this Game
It does happen, two whistles at the same time, but as you get older, more experienced you learn not to signal that call.

Like if i am lead and the C or T makes a call and I blow my whistle also.

I usally let them take the call just because they saw what was happening as it was coming at me.

I normally saw the end result.

???
Not sure were you are coming from, I thought we were both on the same page. Yes, I agree with what you are saying and that's basically what we go over in pre-game.

I don't understand your double whistle with the C (if you are L), if you trust your C, just let him/her make or pass on the call.

[Love this Game]

yes we are both on the same page what i am saying is if we both blow our whistle I let them take the call.

if i am the L

[tjones1]

Originally posted by Love this Game
yes we are both on the same page what i am saying is if we both blow our whistle I let them take the call.

if i am the L

Yup, yup!

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Love this Game
I just dont understand how you would have a doulbe foul on this one.

Either a block or a charge. There is no way you have both.

And yes someone would have ate there whistle.

First rule is when you hear another whistle, find that person who made that call with eye contact. And if you have to discuss it discuss it quickly and make the right all.

I think in that situation a double foul is a bail out call.

I guess I'll jump in here before some of the more curmudgeonly people do...

The reason it's a double foul is because that exact play is listed in the casebook, and that is how we are told to call it. 4.19.7(c). If one official signals a block, and the other official signals a charge, it results in a double personal. It also says "Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul". The basket counts, and you go to an AP throw-in. Try to explain to B's coach why you called a foul on the shooter A1, but the basket still counts, AND A gets the ball back as well because they happen to have the arrow.

Obviously, you and your partners want to avoid this. The best way to avoid it is to learn how to just hold up a fist, rather than making the signal quickly on the spot. We can get together and come out with a single call, we can make eye contact with our partner and either give it up or come in strong and say, "I'll take it!". These all need to be pre-gamed. But, the casebook tells us specifically what to do if there are conflicting signals. So, we can't just say we won't do it because we don't like it. What if I don't like when the warning horns for timeouts are? I don't get to do something different just because I don't think it's fair. So, if you don't want to call a double foul in this situation, don't call two different fouls.

[oc]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

I guess I'll jump in here before some of the more curmudgeonly people do...

The reason it's a double foul is because that exact play is listed in the casebook, and that is how we are told to call it. 4.19.7(c). If one official signals a block, and the other official signals a charge, it results in a double personal. It also says "Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul". The basket counts, and you go to an AP throw-in. Try to explain to B's coach why you called a foul on the shooter A1, but the basket still counts, AND A gets the ball back as well because they happen to have the arrow.

Obviously, you and your partners want to avoid this. The best way to avoid it is to learn how to just hold up a fist, rather than making the signal quickly on the spot. We can get together and come out with a single call, we can make eye contact with our partner and either give it up or come in strong and say, "I'll take it!". These all need to be pre-gamed. But, the casebook tells us specifically what to do if there are conflicting signals. So, we can't just say we won't do it because we don't like it. What if I don't like when the warning horns for timeouts are? I don't get to do something different just because I don't think it's fair. So, if you don't want to call a double foul in this situation, don't call two different fouls.

Exactly. I think some people who disagreed on calling a double foul missed the part of the post where 2 officials signaled opposing calls without checking with each other first. If you are doing things properly and holding your call until you checked that you are both on the same page-fine no double foul. But if you have mistakenly both signaled-then you have to go with the double foul 'Blarge'.

-thanks to those who pointed out my faulty administration of the penalty. I was thinking of 4.19.8 (false double foul).

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by oc

Exactly. I think some people who disagreed on calling a double foul missed the part of the post where 2 officials signaled opposing calls without checking with each other first. If you are doing things properly and holding your call until you checked that you are both on the same page-fine no double foul. But if you have mistakenly both signaled-then you have to go with the double foul 'Blarge'.

-thanks to those who pointed out my faulty administration of the penalty. I was thinking of 4.19.8 (false double foul).

Yes you are right and my main concern is this, and this is something you learn and master with time.

And i understand what the case book says if you both signal, but you have to be observant enough to se your partners hand go up. Or hear that whistle and say delay that signal until you and your partner have made eye contact.

Normally one of you saw what happend first. Especially if the play is coming toward the L and the T calls it with the L.

I am not and never will go against what it says in the case book or rule book, I just gues i am talking more abt communication with your partners.

[tjones1]

For the record, I didn't miss that both signaled.

[deecee]

this is not like 2 post players fighting for position and they each push and dislodge each other --

If you have a blocking foul on the defense HOW can you have a simultaneous charge???

If the offensive player commited a charge then how can you have a blocking foul since the defender HAD LEGAL guarding position (which is why it was a foul)??

This is a situation where you guys get together and Whoever's primary it was steps up and says "I got this" and the other one has to bow down and if a coach says "Well you had this......" that's when you reply "It was in his primary and he had a better angle on the play" and move on. Who cares if you both made different signals -- its either a block or a charge -- I dont see how these 2 could happen simultaneously ever.

[tjones1]

Exactly.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by deecee
this is not like 2 post players fighting for position and they each push and dislodge each other --

If you have a blocking foul on the defense HOW can you have a simultaneous charge???

If the offensive player commited a charge then how can you have a blocking foul since the defender HAD LEGAL guarding position (which is why it was a foul)??

This is a situation where you guys get together and Whoever's primary it was steps up and says "I got this" and the other one has to bow down and if a coach says "Well you had this......" that's when you reply "It was in his primary and he had a better angle on the play" and move on. Who cares if you both made different signals -- its either a block or a charge -- I dont see how these 2 could happen simultaneously ever.

They can't happen simulatenously but the rulebook says its a doublefoul, well the casebook has a specific play on this stating its a double foul. But I do agree with you, a player either has a LGP or he doesn't. It cannot be both. if it happens in my game we are reporting both fouls, that's is the correct thing to do by rule.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by deecee
If you have a blocking foul on the defense HOW can you have a simultaneous charge???

If the offensive player commited a charge then how can you have a blocking foul since the defender HAD LEGAL guarding position (which is why it was a foul)??

Philosophically, I absolutely agree with you. You should never have this situation happen, if both you and your partner use the proper mechanics.

Ok, here's the play: team A is down 2 with 5 sec. left. They have the arrow. A1 drives the lane, and there's a big collision. You signal charge, your partner signals block. You each look up and go, "oh, sh!t". You get together, figure out it was in your primary, and you go take the call. Charge on A1, B gets the ball OOB. Sounds like the right thing to do. Buuuuut...what if you get a smart coach who knows the rules? (Ok, I know, it doesn't happen often... ) A's coach saw both your signals. He argues casebook play 4.19.7(c). You are, in effect, taking away his chance to tie the game with free throws, and win it with a last possesion, just because you don't like how the rules are written and interpreted. The officials screwed up by making two different calls, and the end result is spelled out in black and white. Whether or not we think it's fair doesn't count.

Another example: A1 is dribbling while being closely guarded. B1 tips the ball away and it is about to be picked up by B2 who has a clear breakaway. Your partner (the same rookie who made the blarge call last game...) blows his whistle because A's coach asks for a TO. You get together, realize it's an inadvertant whistle, and give the ball back to A. In addition, A now gets that TO if they still want it. So, B loses a breakaway AND A gets a TO they weren't initially entitled to because of an official's error. Not fair? Of course not, but that's the way the rules are written.

So, don't think of the play actually being both a block and a charge, but look at it as an official's error. The rules spell out what happens if they screw up. If we don't want to be embarrased by applying the casebook play, then we shouldn't be making two different signals.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Love this Game


And yes someone would have ate there whistle.

Now you've done it. Poor Mr. Grammar Guy is once again shocked into unconsciousness by your double error!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
If we don't want to be embarrased by applying the casebook play, then we shouldn't be making two different signals.

Originally posted by M&M Guy
Ok, here's the play: team A is down 2 with 5 sec. left. They have the arrow. A1 drives the lane, and there's a big collision. You signal charge, your partner signals block. You each look up and go, "oh, sh!t". You get together, figure out it was in your primary, and you go take the call. Charge on A1, B gets the ball OOB. Sounds like the right thing to do. Buuuuut...what if you get a smart coach who knows the rules? (Ok, I know, it doesn't happen often... ) A's coach saw both your signals. He argues casebook play 4.19.7(c). You are, in effect, taking away his chance to tie the game with free throws,...

Nor should we be screwing up by awarding FTs on a double foul because then we would have to be really embarrassed by using the correctable error rule.

[M&M Guy]

Like I told Juulie before - listen to what I mean, not what I say.

[tjones1]

A start to avoid this mess is to read her article on the paid site about the pre-game.