Body Displacement

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
I don't think Rut's saying you NEVER call a foul, but only that there are cases where a no-call might be okay.

There are several degrees of "hitting the floor", and we need to witness it before making a call, I think.

I had a play at this tournament recently:

A1 on a fast break, goes up for layup, and B1, a taller player, gets a piece of it and blocks it. I was ready to no-call it until B1's shoulder bumped A1 on the way down, causing him to hit the "stanchion" ( there, I used the word - are you happy Camron, Juulie, Chuck, and Bob?).

I remember it seeming like an eternity between the ball getting blocked, and the defender hitting the shooter. No one on the floor complained, no coaches complained.

And, for what it's worth (which is not much), the crowd let out a huge "OHHHHH" in applause after the block - but did not express any disapproval after I called the foul.

Bottom line here is this is one of those ones you just gotta see.

Canucklehead(), we are talking about a very specific play here- not the variations and what-ifs that are being brought up. The play as described in the original post was displacing a shooter from behind with enough force to knock him on his a$$. In that particular play, what difference does it really make if the ball was contacted or not?

I agree that there are different degrees and situations involving shooter-defender contact, but in the play as descibed, I can't see how anything but a foul could be called. You displace the shooter hard enough to dump him? You don't allow the shooter a normal landing but instead put him on his butt upside down? That's good enough for me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 19th, 2005 at 06:45 PM]

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
A1 on a fast break, goes up for layup, and B1, a taller player, gets a piece of it and blocks it. I was ready to no-call it until B1's shoulder bumped A1 on the way down, causing him to hit the "stanchion" ( there, I used the word - are you happy Camron, Juulie, Chuck, and Bob?).

Originally posted by alfreedog
A1 is going up for a lay up and B1 is trailing the play, as A1 places the ball on the backboard B1 blocks the shot but in turn makes body contact with A1 and displaces his body so he in turns hits the floor. Foul or incidental contact?

Yeah, I see your point, there's a huge difference there

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I have to totally agree with Jeff on this one. Show me a block (especially in the boy's game) where there is no contact, and I will show you a game that does not resemble basketball. I have yet to see a 6'8" center not make contact any contact on a block shot.

Never??? I find that hard to believe. I've seem some big guys get up and swat a small guard's airborne shot away with nothing even close to contact. Looked like basketball to me...takes guys that can jump though.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by jeffpea

All I'm simply saying is that I will give the defender more leeway on contact during a blocked shot if the defender gets a large portion of the ball or even gets the ball cleanly.

There's no judgment involved at all if he gets the ball cleanly. And there should be no judgment involved if the shooter gets knocked to the floor. The judgment comes in if the contact is slight, and the defender is in legal position. In the play described at the beginning of this thread, the defender was trying to block the ball from behind, so the position was not legal, and there was contact. No judgment at all. Foul. Period.

[jeffpea]

One of the things that disappoints me about conversations such as this one on this forum is that people tend to use extreme examples to illustrate their point. I'm not talking about either extreme in this case - a strong block w/ a slight touch on the shooter OR a strong block w/ a HUGE amount of contact.

I wish I had some video clips to illustrate my point. I officiate high school and college ball. The games that I do are usually pretty competitive with pretty good athletes. I will allow a player to block a shot cleanly "up top" and make contact (WITHIN REASON) with his body after blocking the shot. To me, that's a good defensive play. If there is an large amount of contact, then I've got to call a foul. If the defender has to go thru the shooter and sufficient contact occurs BEFORE the block - then I've got a foul.

The blocked shot is one of the more athletic or "beautiful" parts of the game. I prefer not to call a "game interrupter" if I can help it. Sometimes I can't - but I want to give the defender the benefit of the doubt if he has blocked the ball cleanly up top.

[refTN]

Good example:

I was reffing at a camp and I called a foul on a kid for hitting the other kid across the arm while in the act of shooting and as soon as it left the hand of the shooter a kid came over and threw it into the third row, then one of the NBA officials come over there and says I have to let that go because of the shot block that was about to happen. I understand that especially at the college level, but in high school level if a kid is hitting the floor my supervisor wants a whistle.

But in the case of the block on the backboard:

high school: Tweet!
college : Play on!

Trust me though I don't want to call it in high school.

Rainmaker: you are saying there is no LGP, you are right, but I was taught that this is an athletic basketball play, and I use the philosophy blindzebra used or talked about, "ball before body" not "body before ball".

In the extreme case of the shot and it the shot being nicked, unless the kid runs through him, I have a no call, but that is definitely one of those "I had to be there" plays.

Overall I think either way in HS is good but in college i would not advise blowing this one.( I am talking about the blocked shot on the backboard)

I am on such an officiating high right now. Everbody needs to keep it coming all day tommorrow forever. I think the forum is starting to pick up a little bit.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by refTN

But in the case of the block on the backboard:

high school: Tweet!
college : Play on!

Trust me though I don't want to call it in high school.

Why would you call it in HS? What rule are you using to have a whistle in a high school game because the shot was blocked on the backboard?

Z

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by zebraman

Why would you call it in HS? What rule are you using to have a whistle in a high school game because the shot was blocked on the backboard?

Z

Hey, Z, try to keep up here. He's talking about the play under discussion, which is where the ball is blocked from behind, and there's enough contact to knock the kid down.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Z

Hey, Z, try to keep up here. He's talking about the play under discussion, which is where the ball is blocked from behind, and there's enough contact to knock the kid down.

Hey Rainmaker,

Watch your manners.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Jul 20th, 2005 at 01:09 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by zebraman

Hey Rainmaker,

Watch your manners.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Jul 20th, 2005 at 01:09 AM]

Okay, I'm watching...

.....

.....

Does something happen pretty soon?

[zebraman]

Originally posted by rainmaker



Okay, I'm watching...

.....

.....

Does something happen pretty soon?

Hope so ... seems as if you're having a slow night.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker


There's no judgment involved at all if he gets the ball cleanly. And there should be no judgment involved if the shooter gets knocked to the floor. The judgment comes in if the contact is slight, and the defender is in legal position. In the play described at the beginning of this thread, the defender was trying to block the ball from behind, so the position was not legal, and there was contact. No judgment at all. Foul. Period.

Not sure how you can say there is no judgment involved. Of course there is judgment, not all officials see the play the same way. Some of officials are not in position to tell if there is a block or to determine if the contact warrants a foul or the contact should be passed on. I also think again 4-27 still applies here. If the contact did not hinder the offensive player from doing their normal activities, it is not simply a foul.

I am with Jeff again. I work some kids that can really leap and it is not often on a block shot there is absolutely no contact. If we called every little contact made, we would not work any more games. I worked a summer league game yesterday with two programs that routinely have D1 prospects on their teams. They game had a lot of contact and players playing above the rim. If I called fouls on blocked shots with some contact, I would have got run out of there.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Not sure how you can say there is no judgment involved. Of course there is judgment, not all officials see the play the same way. Some of officials are not in position to tell if there is a block or to determine if the contact warrants a foul or the contact should be passed on. I also think again 4-27 still applies here. If the contact did not hinder the offensive player from doing their normal activities, it is not simply a foul.

I meant there's no judgment involved if there's no contact, which is what I thought he meant when he said "blocks the ball cleanly." There's also no judgment if the contact is such that the shooter gets knocked to the floor. That's gotta be a foul every time. Nothing to think about.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by zebraman

Hope so ... seems as if you're having a slow night.

Z

I'm not the one that didn't know what play we were discussing!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker


I meant there's no judgment involved if there's no contact, which is what I thought he meant when he said "blocks the ball cleanly." There's also no judgment if the contact is such that the shooter gets knocked to the floor. That's gotta be a foul every time. Nothing to think about.

How can that be a foul every time? So a player falls to the floor we have to call a foul? What about how they got there?

Peace