Things from camp

[refTN]

Originally posted by rainmaker

If you learned this, then don't go to that camp again. They should not be putting down anyone based on age at either end!

PS What does it mean to "walk through the drive"?!

What do you mean by don't go to the camp again. They weren't putting me down they were making me better and helping me understand my calls and to understand why I make them.

Walking through the drive is where at L you are near the sideline and there is a drive to the hole down the baseline and you follow the drive so you can see between the players and when the player gets ready to go up you step back toward the sideline to get the proper angle most of the time because a kid who takes the ball baseline near the baseline is behind the goal so when he goes up he will have to jump at angle that will get him a look at the goal and when he makes that jump if you take that one step back toward the sideline you will be amazed at how good of a look you get.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by refTN

What do you mean by don't go to the camp again. They weren't putting me down they were making me better and helping me understand my calls and to understand why I make them.

Walking through the drive is where at L you are near the sideline and there is a drive to the hole down the baseline and you follow the drive so you can see between the players and when the player gets ready to go up you step back toward the sideline to get the proper angle most of the time because a kid who takes the ball baseline near the baseline is behind the goal so when he goes up he will have to jump at angle that will get him a look at the goal and when he makes that jump if you take that one step back toward the sideline you will be amazed at how good of a look you get.

Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't heard that phrase before, and it's interesting.

When I said don't go to that camp again, I meant that if they taught you to feel sorry that you're young, they weren't helping. I thought that's why you had "Sorry I'm young" on your list of things you learned. Did I misunderstand something?

[refTN]

Rainmaker- I just meant that my list was so long and I am so young that I had a lot to learn

Larks- The 4 principles of officiating is the bread and butter of the SEC, they are always saying them except there are 5 principles. They are

-stay in your primary
-ref the D
-Call the obvious
-trust your partner
-be a good partner

drothamel- If Mr. Nichols wants it than he's got it, but IMO if you go low your seeing nothing but your matchup and the backcourt, instead of being on topside, not at T but on topside working your arc and seeing your matchup and your secondary matchup. Tell me if you disagree or what your opinion on this is I would like to hear it and others. Don't get me wrong though, if I am wanting to work deep into the ncaa tournament then I am going to do as Mr. Nichols wants me to do but this is just my opinion.

[Edited by refTN on Jul 16th, 2005 at 10:31 PM]

[tomegun]

RefTN, while I applaud your enthusiasm I think you should be careful to keep from being a clone. I have been to several camps and it is obvious that some guys are in the SEC program because of the way they run and their mechanics. The funny thing about it is even though they do games in the program the guys that move up to the SEC that I know of have their own style and work in other conferences.
I also think one thing that could be the most important is missing from your list of principles. We must get in the best position to see plays. There is no "one size fits all" for this but repetitive principles that will give good results over time.

[SavaahnTy]

I have enjoyed reading these posts... especially since I was unable to attend ANY camps this summer due to personal stuff.

I definately wouldnt mind hearing from some more people on the things that they learned....no matter what level camp it was.

The only suggestion that I can make is in refernce to the " I'm still young " gentleman......

Even though you are young, you can teach those who are older/more experienced things. Many veterans sometimes get set in their/our ways....and need to hear what they new guys think/learn. Just remember to THOROUGHLY EXPLAIN exactly what you are speaking about.... because some of the terms may be completely foreign to some of us, but we may have knowledge about the concept of the term. In that way, we can help each other.

My 2 cents

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

[refTN]

Originally posted by tomegun
RefTN, while I applaud your enthusiasm I think you should be careful to keep from being a clone. I have been to several camps and it is obvious that some guys are in the SEC program because of the way they run and their mechanics. The funny thing about it is even though they do games in the program the guys that move up to the SEC that I know of have their own style and work in other conferences.
I also think one thing that could be the most important is missing from your list of principles. We must get in the best position to see plays. There is no "one size fits all" for this but repetitive principles that will give good results over time.

Tomegun you hit that right on the nose. As far as I know all the SEC officials I have seen do have their own style because as anyone who has been to a John Guthrie Camp or talked to him they know that he wants you to follow those 5 principles and most of all like you said he always wants you to be in the right position to give yourself the best possible chance to get the call right.

If you get a chance or if you already have watched SEC tapes Mr. Guthrie reinforces position and those 5 principles all the time.

Like I said though Tomegun you are exactly right, but I think it is good to be a clone in some respects, I think it is great to be a clone in every aspect of the game except for your style and your personality. Aren't NBA refs just clones? I think they are because when I went to IIOC I did not hear one bit of conflicting information, they all said the same thing time and time again.

[tomegun]

When I say clones I mean there are certain guys I can watch for about 10 seconds and know they work for coach Guthrie. It is the way they run and the mechanics. It has nothing to do with how they get into position or philosophy.

[sleebo]

RefTN, I believe we were at IIOC together. (hint: my voice has returned and I am strong as ever!) When half of the current NBA staff and almost half of the NCAA tournament staff comes from a developmental program, one might have to say that "the proof is in the pudding".

This I have learned to be true, both from camp and practical application in games since:

*Going to camp and dedicating yourself (as opposed to club-hopping when you have an early morning game) will make you twice the official you were before you arrived

*Short guys do have a shot- it's all about getting plays right (shout out to Chuck Elias)

*Going topside at slot prevents one from getting into a stack and being straight-lined and allows the slot to see between players

*Calling only the obvious walks and not trying to read between the lines keeps us out of trouble with everyone

*There are opportunities for those who view officiating as a passion (not just those in the SEC developmental program)--take it seriously, practice mechanics incessantly, and good things can and will happen

* Pinching the paint (going to lane-line extended and stepping toward paint and down at a 45 degree angle on drive down middle of lane or from oppostite side towards lead) allows me to see a definite action area in that the play is coming towards the Lead and contact may occur in an angle that is not open to another official (and we get those plays right!)


*Start, develop, finish (AKA seeing the whole play) allows us to get plays right almost all of the time. I had an awesome play today in which the post defender flopped on marginal contact, went to the floor, got his feet tangled with the offensive post player, causing the offensive player to fall... delayed whistle and-BLOCK!!!

*Projecting rock-solid strength eliminates most all confusion and slams the door shut on questioning (I love ya Leroy Richardson...)

*Scorekeepers can deal with two-handed reporting if we as officals properly vocalize the number

*I love officiating!

[refTN]

Sleebo has hit it deep, deep to center field and it is gone!!!!!!

Perfectly said sleebo, and by the way I was the 19 yr old from where else but TN. If you ever want to talk I was #64 and my email address was one slot down from my name.

Was that camp not unbelieveable?

I love learning the art of refereeing from the best in the world!!!!

[drothamel]

RefTN--

The step-down was part of a larger picture. Think about it in terms of the larger picture of the rotation. If the ball comes to you in the C and settles right in front of you (free-throw line extended), a switch should be coming. The instruction was to take a step down in order to better referee that play, since it will be the only one you have. Your partner should be coming across on the rotation in order to cover any post play on your side. Once the ball either swings back out, or there is a drive to the basket, you can officiate your play and then finish the rotation by moving out to trail. The reason for the step down, and not up, is that officials had a tendency to bail out on the play because of the impending rotation. The step down forces you to stay with that play, as you should. Also, I still think that the angle is better a tick on the low side than a tick on the high side, espcially because most players will keep the ball on the baseline side of their bodies, so that opens them up to you. Couple that with the fact that most defenders play defense in order to force their man baseline, and it just felt like, to me, that I had a better angle from the low side.

Like I said, two different camps, two different philosophies. It was quite interesting to hear the reasons for each of them. Now at least I know the options, and when I can use them.

[refTN]

drothamel-

Great point on the bail out, that does happen alot to undisciplined guys. It is like you said though different camp, different philosophy, and that is what I love about the game. We all need to be in the right spot to ref the play correctly and some people do it well one way and people do it well another.

I guess the reason I say go topside is because that is what my mentor taught me, but I also meant to say this:

You don't have to go total topside, just when the ball is rotated, step up and get two steps to the left/right or a little more if possible, and two steps behind. I am sure we were taught different things and I think that is ok. I think you were taught when the ball is in your primary, referee just the on-ball matchup, which puts you in an inside-out angle dropping down, and seeing just that matchup. I was grabbed and taught early on by mentor that if the ball is in my primary I need to be able to referee the on-ball matchup and the next closest matchup, as well as i need to be able to keep as many people in my field of vision as possible, so I step up and look having an outside-in look, which I was taught was the best angle you could get, but really who knows. I am sure your way works excellent for you, and if I am being taught that Hank Nichols wants this, then I am doing it.

I don't know anything about Mr. Nichols though and I don't know how he likes to work. If I had to say he wants things done by the CCA manual, which i am not certain by any means, tells you to dive down on that play.

I know Mr. Guthrie is an enthusiast of the pro mechanics. The thing that sticks out in my mind is that he believes that if the ball is right in front of the L's face behind the three point line, he would like the L to take a look at it and not only that but give a preliminary signal for a 3 pointer.

Great topic of discussion. please write back and keep it going. I love to learn different philosophies and have points and counterpoints.

drothamel what camp did you go to by the way?

[Edited by refTN on Jul 18th, 2005 at 03:28 PM]

[Goose]

I attended a HS 3-man camp this summer, mainly to get more familiar with working in the 3 man system. The camp will remain nameless as will it's location, but let's just say that an SEC element was present. At least I saw the SEC tapes of the plays of the week which were wonderful.

Although the camp was good, I felt out of place since I had more experience (years) than all but one of the clinicians and one camper! Of course we had the 5 year ref doing D-1, and another with about 7 years experience. Nothing personal, but how much experience can a 7 year official really have?

And how could I leave out the A-hole up and coming ref who thinks he is god's gift to officiating? I had the pleasure of working with this rump-swab 3 times, and at the end of game 3 nearly had to restrain my other partner from ringing his neck! This guy would rotate when the ball was in the air, and of course, that meant the other 2 guys were now out of position. The clinicians had a field day with this issue, that is until I pulled the clinician aside and asked him did he not see that this guy was rotating when the ball was in the air and that is why we had 2 Leads? His response was, "yea, I saw what he was doing." So, if you saw what he was doing, basically making his two partners look like donkey's, why did you ask us why were there 2 Leads 5 times in the first half?

Here's a few things that were reinforced. Mind you, they are not all positive.

My biggest gripe and this continues to this day, is one of consistency. What I was told at this camp was almost 90 degrees out of phase of what I was taught at a Northeastern IAABO camp! To me, this is a huge problem within the officiating community. There are just to many differences and this makes it awfully frustrating. I will illustrate a couple of issues.

Counting: Specifically the backcourt count. I thought it odd when I moved into this area when watching other officials count, they would extend their arms from the armpit out and up. I was always taught, and taught at the IAABO camp the count was from the waist straight out or slightly downward. This makes sense because I really don't want to hit a player in the head while counting. Now at this camp, it is from the armpit, out and up. FED mechaninc manual 'seems' to indicate a similar position, so maybe I was originally taught wrong. I was constantly criticized for my counts being to low, even when they were chest high.

Second mechanics issue: Reporting. Again, I was always taught to use your body as a background when reporting. Not so at this camp. I was constantly reminded of the 'box' which is a window from chest high to the top of your head extended to the side of your body. Again, I was critiqued for not reporting and using hand signals in the box.

Of course these seem like minor things and over time I'm sure I will adjust, but it is frustrating that there are so many different interpretations.

Now, in watching the clinicians work, it was the old axiom of "don't do what I do, do as I say", because all of them didn't even follow their own advice when it came to mechanics. I guess the 5th year guy doing D-1 has a 'right' to do his own thing, but it sends an awfully conflicting message to the younger guys. I do not understand the mentality that says you must do all the mechanics by the book, but then once you get to D-1 you can chuck it. Now why would one have to learn it if when one gets to D-1 they can do what they want? This has always bothered me. I have seen tapes of Hank Nichols and have seen him live, and his mechanics were about as perfect as possible. Impressive to say the least, but yet for the most part, they are a mish-mash in D-1 at present.

I fear that these issues will eventually drive me out of the profession as I am becomming more and more frustrated at the double standards that exist as well as the lack of consistency across the board. For my money, there are just to many theories, to many ways of doing things, one can never know exactly what is the correct thing. I am more than willing to do it by the book, but are we all reading from the same book?

The other annoyance was the term "game interrupter". Strictly a college term, but I was scolded for calling a hack from the slot on a player who prevented another player from taking a shot in the low post as he turned to me. Everyone saw it, but at the break, my call was classified as a game interrupter. I'm just glad that the coach next to me saw me make the call cause it was his player who got hacked. Anyway, press on.

Other issues. Call your area, period, unless the end of the world is near. We had a clear block charge with me in the slot from the opposite side of the court down the lane. Huge crash, I held, Lead froze IMO, and thus no call, but it was without a doubt a charge. In 2-man, I wouldn't have hesitated in making the call, but with 3-man, there are some fuzzy issues with calling your area only. Talked to the camp director at the break and asked him his opinion and what should I have done. Basically, I did the right thing and eat the whistle, although I didn't feel good with that answer since player A got away with manslaughter while the whole gym watched. So, I'm not so sure about this call your area only thing, but I can respect it.

Same game, earlier, I'm in the slot again, and player A drives and takes off from other side of the court slashing to the basket airborne. Arm gets ticked, and I mean ticked. Shot still got off without a problem. Lead again fails to call (this was a D-1 official). Player A turns to him and says he was hit, and thereupon was awarded with a T. I was then asked later if I saw his arm being hit, whereupon I said I saw it get touched, not hit, and furthermore, it had no effect on his motion or his release. I was chastized for not making this call from the slot. So, in this game I couldn't win for losing. Damned if I did, and damned if I didn't.

All in all, it was a good learning experience for me. It all wasn't bad. I got my 3-man stuff down, but I'm still at odds with the inconsistency that exists at these camps. To much power is being held by assignors, and especially so with college men and women working as clinicians at HS camps.

goose

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Goose
I attended a HS 3-man camp this summer, mainly to get more familiar with working in the 3 man system. The camp will remain nameless as will it's location, but let's just say that an SEC element was present. At least I saw the SEC tapes of the plays of the week which were wonderful.

Although the camp was good, I felt out of place since I had more experience (years) than all but one of the clinicians and one camper! Of course we had the 5 year ref doing D-1, and another with about 7 years experience. Nothing personal, but how much experience can a 7 year official really have?

I understand why you feel that way, but this is really not fair for you to question someone's experience because it is not as long as you have worked. Some officials just get it. Some officials know what they are supposed to do and do it at an early age. Tiger Woods is probably the best golfer to ever play the game. Tiger is much younger than most golfers on the tour. How long he has been playing does not diminish his skill level. Maybe these officials played the game at college or coached for a long time? I do not know, but everyone that is good cannot work D1 ball.

Originally posted by Goose
And how could I leave out the A-hole up and coming ref who thinks he is god's gift to officiating? I had the pleasure of working with this rump-swab 3 times, and at the end of game 3 nearly had to restrain my other partner from ringing his neck! This guy would rotate when the ball was in the air, and of course, that meant the other 2 guys were now out of position. The clinicians had a field day with this issue, that is until I pulled the clinician aside and asked him did he not see that this guy was rotating when the ball was in the air and that is why we had 2 Leads? His response was, "yea, I saw what he was doing." So, if you saw what he was doing, basically making his two partners look like donkey's, why did you ask us why were there 2 Leads 5 times in the first half?

There are always people at camp like this. I would not worry about it.

Originally posted by Goose
My biggest gripe and this continues to this day, is one of consistency. What I was told at this camp was almost 90 degrees out of phase of what I was taught at a Northeastern IAABO camp! To me, this is a huge problem within the officiating community. There are just to many differences and this makes it awfully frustrating. I will illustrate a couple of issues.

Counting: Specifically the backcourt count. I thought it odd when I moved into this area when watching other officials count, they would extend their arms from the armpit out and up. I was always taught, and taught at the IAABO camp the count was from the waist straight out or slightly downward. This makes sense because I really don't want to hit a player in the head while counting. Now at this camp, it is from the armpit, out and up. FED mechaninc manual 'seems' to indicate a similar position, so maybe I was originally taught wrong. I was constantly criticized for my counts being to low, even when they were chest high.

I was always taught to keep my count level with my shoulder. I do not think it really matters, there is personal preference involved in many things we do. Not a big deal where I see things.

Originally posted by Goose
Second mechanics issue: Reporting. Again, I was always taught to use your body as a background when reporting. Not so at this camp. I was constantly reminded of the 'box' which is a window from chest high to the top of your head extended to the side of your body. Again, I was critiqued for not reporting and using hand signals in the box.

I never was taught to signal in front of my body. It is harder to see and if the scorer does not hear you, they might confuse what number you had. What they taught you is the same thing we teach guys at the HS level here.

Originally posted by Goose
Now, in watching the clinicians work, it was the old axiom of "don't do what I do, do as I say", because all of them didn't even follow their own advice when it came to mechanics. I guess the 5th year guy doing D-1 has a 'right' to do his own thing, but it sends an awfully conflicting message to the younger guys. I do not understand the mentality that says you must do all the mechanics by the book, but then once you get to D-1 you can chuck it. Now why would one have to learn it if when one gets to D-1 they can do what they want? This has always bothered me. I have seen tapes of Hank Nichols and have seen him live, and his mechanics were about as perfect as possible. Impressive to say the least, but yet for the most part, they are a mish-mash in D-1 at present.

Life is not fair. I have heard Tom O'Neal talk about this several times. He says guys do one thing when they are going up the latter and change when they get there. The only thing I can really say is officials at that level (and even at the high levels of HS) are judged by the calls they make, not the mechanics they use. That is just the way it is. I am sure it has always been that way.

Originally posted by Goose
I fear that these issues will eventually drive me out of the profession as I am becomming more and more frustrated at the double standards that exist as well as the lack of consistency across the board. For my money, there are just to many theories, to many ways of doing things, one can never know exactly what is the correct thing. I am more than willing to do it by the book, but are we all reading from the same book?

Of course we are not all reading from the same book, because the book does not clarify all these differences and possibilities.

Originally posted by Goose
The other annoyance was the term "game interrupter". Strictly a college term, but I was scolded for calling a hack from the slot on a player who prevented another player from taking a shot in the low post as he turned to me. Everyone saw it, but at the break, my call was classified as a game interrupter. I'm just glad that the coach next to me saw me make the call cause it was his player who got hacked. Anyway, press on.

This is another common term used where I live. I was not there to judge whether your call was a game interrupter or not, but I know that we try to pass on plays that do not affect the play.

Originally posted by Goose
Other issues. Call your area, period, unless the end of the world is near. We had a clear block charge with me in the slot from the opposite side of the court down the lane. Huge crash, I held, Lead froze IMO, and thus no call, but it was without a doubt a charge. In 2-man, I wouldn't have hesitated in making the call, but with 3-man, there are some fuzzy issues with calling your area only. Talked to the camp director at the break and asked him his opinion and what should I have done. Basically, I did the right thing and eat the whistle, although I didn't feel good with that answer since player A got away with manslaughter while the whole gym watched. So, I'm not so sure about this call your area only thing, but I can respect it.

What did your partner think? Maybe your partner had a different point of view. Now I was not there, but I had a call made during a college camp I attended last week and I passed on the call that was clearly in my area. When I asked my partner what happen, she clearly did not know see what I did. It was not a big deal, but I know I would not have called anything if I had a second chance at the same play.

Originally posted by Goose
Same game, earlier, I'm in the slot again, and player A drives and takes off from other side of the court slashing to the basket airborne. Arm gets ticked, and I mean ticked. Shot still got off without a problem. Lead again fails to call (this was a D-1 official). Player A turns to him and says he was hit, and thereupon was awarded with a T. I was then asked later if I saw his arm being hit, whereupon I said I saw it get touched, not hit, and furthermore, it had no effect on his motion or his release. I was chastized for not making this call from the slot. So, in this game I couldn't win for losing. Damned if I did, and damned if I didn't.

That is camp. It is not unusual for one clinician to tell you one thing and another to say something completely different. That is just the way things work. It is up to you to decide if the information they give you works for you.

Originally posted by Goose
All in all, it was a good learning experience for me. It all wasn't bad. I got my 3-man stuff down, but I'm still at odds with the inconsistency that exists at these camps. To much power is being held by assignors, and especially so with college men and women working as clinicians at HS camps.

goose

What is your suggestion for a change? Not sure it is going to change anytime soon, nor should it if you ask me. We cannot get clinicians and camps in my state to all agree on what to do, what makes you think it is going to change when you go to different camps across the country?

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Goose

Other issues. Call your area, period, unless the end of the world is near. We had a clear block charge with me in the slot from the opposite side of the court down the lane. Huge crash, I held, Lead froze IMO, and thus no call, but it was without a doubt a charge. In 2-man, I wouldn't have hesitated in making the call, but with 3-man, there are some fuzzy issues with calling your area only. Talked to the camp director at the break and asked him his opinion and what should I have done. Basically, I did the right thing and eat the whistle, although I didn't feel good with that answer since player A got away with manslaughter while the whole gym watched. So, I'm not so sure about this call your area only thing, but I can respect it.

Same game, earlier, I'm in the slot again, and player A drives and takes off from other side of the court slashing to the basket airborne. Arm gets ticked, and I mean ticked. Shot still got off without a problem. Lead again fails to call (this was a D-1 official). Player A turns to him and says he was hit, and thereupon was awarded with a T. I was then asked later if I saw his arm being hit, whereupon I said I saw it get touched, not hit, and furthermore, it had no effect on his motion or his release. I was chastized for not making this call from the slot. So, in this game I couldn't win for losing. Damned if I did, and damned if I didn't.

There's a couple of different schools of thought on this one.

- Not in your area: pass!
- C needs to be aggressive & get what he can, sort of like F5 grabbing ground balls to his left in front of F6
- Anyone can grab the obvious call, especially when bodies hit the floor. Also known as 'game savers'.

In any event the C has the best view of arm contact and should take those, as in your second play.

Usually these issues are resolved during pregame, unfortunately pregames at camp are not long and sometimes the crew is not on the same page consistently. And if it makes you feel better, all bets are off if a crew member is not taking calls he should be taking - IOW trust your partner until he proves he can't be trusted. Maybe your clinician felt Mr Big Time couldn't be trusted? And *someone* needed to step up?

All in all, it was a good learning experience for me. It all wasn't bad. I got my 3-man stuff down, but I'm still at odds with the inconsistency that exists at these camps. To much power is being held by assignors, and especially so with college men and women working as clinicians at HS camps.

goose

Camp is camp. Absorb everything, use what you can in your game, file the rest for reference.

[sleebo]

Dan makes a good point in saying that one should take what he/she can from a camp experience. That can also be followed with this thought: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." One may hear conflicting things from camp to camp, from camp to local association/conference, etc. It shows great mental processing ability and thinking on your feet to be able to successfully put things into your game and/or take them out from one game to the next. There is obviously a legitimate reason why a clinician or assigner asks an official to do things a particular way (at least in that individual's mind). Therefore, the camper or official must try to please the person in the authority position. This is a part of the challenging avocation of officiating. Congrats to all who attended camp(s) this summer or have done so in the past. It shows dedication that not many outside of the stripes truly appreciate.