BI to win Camp Championship....or is it?

[tmp44]

Championship of the Team Camp that I went to this weekend. I had just worked the semi-finals of the Varsity Division, and was watching the JV final. Team A up by 1, 0:15 left, Team B has the ball. B1 drives the right side and puts up a layup with 0:04 left and misses. B2 gets the backside rebound and gets a tip off right before the buzzer. The ball hits high off the backboard, then the front of the rim and bounces straight up about 4-5 inches. As the attempt is being made, defender A1 has jumped from about midway in the lane towards the basket. Realizing that it's too late to block the shot, A1 grabs and bottom of the net and pulls down on it, causing the entire basket to come down and spring back up (Important Note: Not the rim, but the entire basket mechanism. This was one of those portable college type baskets where the entire hoop can sort of "sink" on a hard dunk...this is exactly what happened here). As the basket springs back up, the front of the rim makes contact with the ball on the way down, causing it to not go in the hoop. C comes in w/ BI, and Team B wins by 1.

After the play was over, the clinicians who were watching the game discussed the sitch for a while. Now, taking what the rule book actually says about BI, I can see where someone might have a problem with this call. Recall that section (a) states that the ball must be on the rim when contact is made with either the rim, net, etc. and that section (d) states that if the movable ring is brought down and springs back up, then BI is the call.

In this sitch, the ball was not on the rim when contact with the net occurred and the rim itself did not bend, only the basket as a whole. That being said, the action did not allow the ball an opportunity to go in the hoop. Does anyone NOT have BI here?

[Edited by tmp44 on Jun 27th, 2005 at 08:33 AM]

[BktBallRef]

I don't see why they would question the play. It's BI. Article 4 is exactly what occurred. "Pulls down a movable ring so that it contacts the ball before the ring returns to its original position." Article 4 doesn't say that the ball has to be touched or on the rim, only that the rim touches the ball before returning to it's proper position. This was a rule change from 2 years ago.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jun 27th, 2005 at 09:38 AM]

[ChuckElias]

BI, pretty obvious to me. If you're worried about the fact that whole "basket mechanism" moved, then it seems to me that the rim moved too. Therefore, the ring must've been movable, so it still fits the definition of BI.

Anybody splitting that hair isn't using a lot of common sense, IMHO.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by tmp44


In this sitch, the ball was not on the rim when contact with the net occurred and the rim itself did not bend, only the basket as a whole. That being said, the action did not allow the ball an opportunity to go in the hoop. Does anyone NOT have BI here?

The ring didn't bend, but it did move. The rules don't say that the rim must bend, do they? It says, "Pulls down a movable ring..." Why would that not include moving "the whole basket"?

[Snake~eyes]

I agree with the abovees, easy BI in my mind.

[tmp44]

Just to take this further...

I agree that it was BI and the clinicians eventually decided that BI was in fact the correct call. The only aspect the one clinician was worried about is that the "pulling down of a movable ring" meant that the rim had to

1) be a "breakaway rim" that can actually bend down and therefore,

2) since the rim itself remained, for lack of better word, "flat," the last section would not apply.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by tmp44
Just to take this further...

I agree that it was BI and the clinicians eventually decided that BI was in fact the correct call. The only aspect the one clinician was worried about is that the "pulling down of a movable ring" meant that the rim had to

1) be a "breakaway rim" that can actually bend down and therefore,

2) since the rim itself remained, for lack of better word, "flat," the last section would not apply.

How could the rim be both pulled down, and also "flat"? I don't get the picture you're painting here. Do you mean flat as in horizontal, or flat as in planar?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
How could the rim be both pulled down, and also "flat"? I don't get the picture you're painting here. Do you mean flat as in horizontal, or flat as in planar?

Juulie, it was probably one of those portable basketball stanchions. So the whole stanchion moved. The rim, backboard and support were all pulled slightly forward when the kid pulled the net. Then, when the counter-weight took over, it all moved back to upright.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Juulie, it was probably one of those portable basketball stanchions. So the whole stanchion moved. The rim, backboard and support were all pulled slightly forward when the kid pulled the net. Then, when the counter-weight took over, it all moved back to upright.

Okay, thanks. That thought never entered my head.

[tmp44]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Juulie, it was probably one of those portable basketball stanchions. So the whole stanchion moved. The rim, backboard and support were all pulled slightly forward when the kid pulled the net. Then, when the counter-weight took over, it all moved back to upright.

Chuck,

That's exactly what happened...it was just hard to explain. Thanks! (sorry Juulie)

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Juulie, it was probably one of those portable basketball stanchions. So the whole stanchion moved. The rim, backboard and support were all pulled slightly forward when the kid pulled the net. Then, when the counter-weight took over, it all moved back to upright.

What's a "stanchion"?

I'm also not sure why the clinician would fuss over the details of rim, etc. - is it not just flat-out illegal to grab the "goal" (which includes rim, mesh and the flange) while the ball is in the cylinder?

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting something...

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

What's a "stanchion"?

Assuming you're serious (not sure what you meant by the smiley)...the post system that is anchored in the floor as opposed to the wall or ceiling.

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
I'm also not sure why the clinician would fuss over the details of rim, etc. - is it not just flat-out illegal to grab the "goal" (which includes rim, mesh and the flange) while the ball is in the cylinder?

No, it's not illegal to grab the goal while the ball is in the cylinder. It's illegal to touch the ball while the ball is in the cylinder (or to pull the goal down such that it subsequently touches the ball before the goal returns to the normal position).

It's illegal to touch the goal when the ball is in the goal or touching the goal.

The cylinder is the space above the goal but not the goal itself.

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Or maybe I'm misinterpreting something...

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
No, it's not illegal to grab the goal while the ball is in the cylinder. It's illegal to touch the ball while the ball is in the cylinder (or to pull the goal down such that it subsequently touches the ball before the goal returns to the normal position).

It's illegal to touch the goal when the ball is in the goal or touching the goal.

Ugh...yes...my bad. I think my mind went temporarily went south on that one. Thanks for the correction.

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Assuming you're serious (not sure what you meant by the smiley)...the post system that is anchored in the floor as opposed to the wall or ceiling.

I hope you're not suggesting that I'm some kind of dope for not knowing what "Stanchion" is. Webster defines it as "upright bar, post, or support". Which leads me to ask, why not just use one of those words?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
I hope you're not suggesting that I'm some kind of dope for not knowing what "Stanchion" is. Webster defines it as "upright bar, post, or support". Which leads me to ask, why not just use one of those words?

Probably because support could mean anything, even though that's what a stanchion is. But a support could also be the pipes that hold a goal from above or from the wall. A stanchion best describes it.

Here endeth the English lesson.

[Nevadaref]

According to my British friend, we speak American and Canuck speaks Canadian, so the English lessons are certainly necessary.