New NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by JRutledge
There is a baseball player in our area that recently got drafted by the Boston Red Sox. This pitcher's team was in the State Finals this season and lost their first game. I did not hear anyone complaining that this kid would skip college (he had a scholarship to Arizona State waiting for him) and go right to the pros.

You may not have heard it, but I did. And, the arguments were exactly the same: "he can go back later"; "the purpose of college is to get a high paying job -- he will earn more than $1m already", etc.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
I defy anyone to make a case for racism against blacks in an institution where the employees are 80% black, even though the population of the United States is 13% black.

Ok, since we're defying people. . .

How many NBA GMs are black (I can only think of one, Wes Unseld, and he's terrible)? How many executives in the NBA's New York headquarters are black? How many NBA commissioners have been black?

None of this proves that the NBA is racist (and I don't honestly believe that the NBA is a racist organization), but if you want to make a case, that's a good place to start.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Ok, since we're defying people. . .

How many NBA GMs are black (I can only think of one, Wes Unseld, and he's terrible)?

Well, Joe Dumars up in Dee-troit seems to be doing not too badly. Class act too.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by JRutledge
The young Russian female tennis player that won Wimbledon last year was 17 or 18 when she won the tournament. No one is talking about her maturity and how she can handle her millions.

Probably because nobody is talking about tennis period.
Actually, I did hear alot of talk about that young lady but that's because she's pleasant to look at.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, Joe Dumars up in Dee-troit seems to be doing not too badly. Class act too.

Good point. That's two out of 30, about 6.5%.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
The young Russian female tennis player that won Wimbledon last year was 17 or 18 when she won the tournament. No one is talking about her maturity and how she can handle her millions.

Not to mention Michelle Wie, the 15 year old golfer.

IMO there should be no age restrictions in the NBA. If a kid thinks he can play right out of HS let him get an agent & have at it. I believe the real issue is there's a drain of talent away from the NCAA, this age requirement will force most of these kids to serve a year there. Don't forget, the same media outlets that pay the NBA also pay the NCAA, it's in the interest of CBS, ABC, ESPN, etc to keep the level of play up in the NCAA game.

Also, if you get drafted in the first round I believe you get a contract guarantee at some minimum salary. IOW you don't need to be able to compete in the league, you just need to look good enough to go in the first round to make a huge paycheck. If the NBA was serious about keeping HS players out of the league they would eliminate this guarantee.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


How many NBA GMs are black (I can only think of one, Wes Unseld, and he's terrible)? How many executives in the NBA's New York headquarters are black? How many NBA commissioners have been black?

None of this proves that the NBA is racist (and I don't honestly believe that the NBA is a racist organization), but if you want to make a case, that's a good place to start.

There is a difference between personal racism and institutional racism. Personal racism is when someone does something to another person directly. Institutional racism is when a system or practice is keeping a group of people back from opportunity. Just look at the NFL and the way they hired head coaches. It usually was a common practice that a Super Bowl winning offensive or defensive coordinator would get offered a head coaching job the next year. When Marvin Lewis was the defensive coordinator of the Baltimore Ravens when they won the Super Bowl, he was not given an opportunity. His defense was the biggest reason that team was successful; no one even offered the man an interview for the many open head coaching positions. Lewis had to take another position with the Washington Redskins before getting picked up by the Cincinnati Bengals. Many might not look at this as a big deal, but when something changes for an African-American when historically are just as successful, to those watching it raises some eye brows. I could even go on and on about Romeo Crennel and how he won multiple Super Bowls as a Defensive coordinator, to be considered completely secondary to Bellicik. It is not about money, it is about opportunity. I said before I have no problem with the NBA and their age limit. I think the age limit is good for the game because the NBA does not really have a "farm system" to help groom those players. Just when I hear the issues about players not going to the NBA, even when the player is a LeBron James type, people seemed to make the point that they need to "mature" or "grow up" by simply going to college.

Bob,

It is not about whether they are saying a kid should stay or not, it is why he should go to college or go pro. I did not hear anyone say this kid was not "mature" to take a million dollar contract (which he only is going to make around $800,000). When even the top notch players want to go pro, there maturity and intelligence is questioned when they will be guaranteed around 3 million. Why is the kid that comes from the nice suburb making the obvious choice and the inner city kid has to grow up first. It is not just about race, there are issues of social status and class playing in this as well.


Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Ok, since we're defying people. . .

How many NBA GMs are black (I can only think of one, Wes Unseld, and he's terrible)? How many executives in the NBA's New York headquarters are black? How many NBA commissioners have been black?

None of this proves that the NBA is racist (and I don't honestly believe that the NBA is a racist organization), but if you want to make a case, that's a good place to start.

I don't think the NBA would be a good place to start, Chuck. In fact, the NBA is known as the "industry leader on issues related to race and gender hiring practices." As for stats:

There are six black General Managers that I can think of-

Elgin Baylor - Clippers
Isiah Thomas - Knicks
Bernie Bickerstaff - Bobcats
Billy King - 76ers
Joe Dumars - Pistons
Billy Knight - Hawks

Wes Unseld isn't the GM for the Wizards. Ernie Grunfield is.

There are 12 head coaches that I can think of-

Maurice Cheeks - 76ers
Doc Rivers - Celtics
Mike Woodsen - Hawks
Bernie Bickerstaff - Bobcats
Avery johnson - Mavericks
Mike Brown - Cavs
Dwane Casey - Wolves
Byron Scott - Hornets
Sam Mitchell - Raptors
Eddie Jordan - Wizards
Nate MacMillan - Sonics
Herb Williams - Knicks

NBA HQ - More diversity than you would think! I found this info online-

13 people of color in vice president positions
13 women in vice president positions
League Office professional staff at 29 percent
The support staff is 53 percent minorities
Limited partners as owners with 6 and 1 primary owner Bobcats
CEOs/ team presidents with 10 percent
Ronnie Nunn is the Supervisor of Officials

Nope, I think we'd better look at the NFL or the MLB.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
There are six black General Managers that I can think of-

Elgin Baylor - Clippers
Isiah Thomas - Knicks
Bernie Bickerstaff - Bobcats
Billy King - 76ers
Joe Dumars - Pistons
Billy Knight - Hawks


NBA HQ -

13 people of color in vice president positions
13 women in vice president positions
League Office professional staff at 29 percent
The support staff is 53 percent minorities
Limited partners as owners with 6 and 1 primary owner Bobcats
CEOs/ team presidents with 10 percent
Ronnie Nunn is the Supervisor of Officials

Like I said, I don't think the NBA is a racist organization. I'm glad to see the numbers support my "gut" feeling. Thanks for the info, Tony.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JRutledge
There is a difference between personal racism and institutional racism. It is not about money, it is about opportunity.

I know that, and agree completely. That's why I posed my "argument" in terms of GMs and executives. If it were only about money, then heck, the players have all the money they could need. The question is "Does the NBA give African Americans the opportunity at its highest positions?" and according to the numbers Tony provided, it certainly looks like they do.

I could even go on and on about Romeo Crennel and how he won multiple Super Bowls as a Defensive coordinator, to be considered completely secondary to Bellicik.

Organizationally, he was secondary to Belichick, of course. But I understand that's not what you mean. I can only assure you that here in New England, Crennel's value is never understated. When talking about the coaching in New England, the local writers never just talk about Belichick; it's always Belichick, Crennel and Weis.

[MN BB Ref]

One of the other provisions of the new NBA collective bargaining agreement is the expansion of the NBADL from 8 to 16 teams. Each team would be associated with two NBA teams so they would be able to send their players down in order to gain experience in a minor league. Think what this would've done for Darko of the Pistons or Ndudi Ebi of the T-wolves. This would allow them to get meaningful playing time in a game situation rather than being practice squad warriors that are constantly plagued by "knee tendinitis". In addition the league has eliminate the injured list and expanded rosters to 15 players, of which 12 may be eligible for any game. Players can be moved back and forth at will, thus allowing for better game management.

Of course this will create more opportunities for players.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by MN BB Ref
One of the other provisions of the new NBA collective bargaining agreement is the expansion of the NBADL from 8 to 16 teams. Each team would be associated with two NBA teams so they would be able to send their players down in order to gain experience in a minor league. Think what this would've done for Darko of the Pistons or Ndudi Ebi of the T-wolves. This would allow them to get meaningful playing time in a game situation rather than being practice squad warriors

That sounds good in theory, MN, but do you really think that any team is going to send down a kid that they just gave $20 million to?

My guess is that the D-League will continue to be what it has been, a place for undrafted free agents to play.

[JRutledge]

I worked as an assistant manager in a particular drug store chain when I moved to my current area. The stores I worked out of had no white people in those stores. The stores were on the south side of Chicago deep in the heart of the inner city. District Managers, Store Managers, Asst. Managers, cashiers, stock people and any other position I cannot think of where African-American. Even the vendors that came into the stores most of the time where people of color. Now that is fine for those areas that have 99.9 percent of their customers were of that race, but what about those that live in more racially diverse areas? Are there the same kinds of opportunity in those stores? Just because there are overwhelming numbers of a certain race, does not mean there is still not forms of institutional racism at works.

I know as an officials I have no problem working in the Chicago Public League and places where there are a lot of African-Americans playing. I also do not just want to be relegated as an official to only working in the predominately African-American areas either. I would also like to work schools where there will be no Black players or coaches on the court. The Class AA State Boy's State Champion was an mostly white team with no African-Americans on any roster spots (a largely Jewish community at that), I would not mind officiating that team, then working teams that are all African-American and cannot win a Regional Title.

I agree that the NBA has a large number of African-Americans in very prominent roles throughout the game. That does not prove there is not discrimination. Discrimination should be judged by whether people in those positions are given the same opportunity. Chuck makes a good point that if only 2 or 3 GMs in the NBA are people of color and the game is overwhelmingly represented, why are there not at least half of the GMs in the NBA a reflection of who is on the team?

None of us here are going to be able to answer this question. For those African-Americans (and women in many cases) observing and looking at the NBA, NFL or MLB, the question is from are we getting the same opportunities as those in similar positions. Joe Dumars was and exceptional player and leader of the Detroit Pistons in his playing days. Elgin Baylor had a Hall of Fame career and was voted one of the Top 50 to ever play in the game several years ago. John Paxon was a marginal player and only had experience as a radio analyst before he got picked to be the Bull's GM. I am not saying Paxon was not qualified for his position, but would someone that has historically been discriminated against get that same opportunity with the little experience he had? B.J. Armstrong who actually worked in the Bull's front office after his playing days did not get the job. So Armstrong, who was also a marginal player on the same teams with Paxon, actually was working in with scouting and front office issues under Jerry Krause. Armstrong did not get the Bull's job or any GM job for that matter. For those that are looking at social justice and fight discrimination, these are specific situations we are looking at. Just to have more people than any other organization than the larger population is not what many are concerned with. I and others are looking at opportunity for those in similar situations or backgrounds.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Chuck makes a good point that if only 2 or 3 GMs in the NBA are people of color and the game is overwhelmingly represented, why are there not at least half of the GMs in the NBA a reflection of who is on the team?

Talk about a discriminatory remark. Why should that be? Just because 78% of the players in the NBA are African-American, it doesn't mean that 78% of all the other positions should be filled with African-Americans as well. There's absolutely no reason to compare those two positions. A player and a general manager are two completely different types of positions, that require different skills and talents. The person who's most qualified applicant for the job should be hired. He shouldn't be hired just for the color of his skin, no matter the color of that skin.

As for great players making great GMs, that just isn't so. What a person did as a player has absolutley nothing to do with whether he will be a good GM or not. I don't think anyone can argue with what Paxson, along with Skiles, has done in Chicago. While we're discussing GMs, the greatest player of all-time was a lousy GM.

BTW, there aren't "2 or 3 GMs in the NBA." There are 6 now and there have been others.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Talk about a discriminatory remark. Why should that be? Just because 78% of the players in the NBA are African-American, it doesn't mean that 78% of all the other positions should be filled with African-Americans as well. There's absolutely no reason to compare those two positions. A player and a general manager are two completely different types of positions, that require different skills and talents. The person who's most qualified applicant for the job should be hired. He shouldn't be hired just for the color of his skin, no matter the color of that skin.

As for great players making great GMs, that just isn't so. What a person did as a player has absolutley nothing to do with whether he will be a good GM or not. I don't think anyone can argue with what Paxson, along with Skiles, has done in Chicago. While we're discussing GMs, the greatest player of all-time was a lousy GM.

BTW, there aren't "2 or 3 GMs in the NBA." There are 6 now and there have been others.

Of course you find it discriminatory, you always find any comment that someone makes about giving people of color a chance discriminatory. Of course you think that all people of color cannot do the job, why else would you get upset? I guess we can play the game, we just cannot make and decisions around the game. I especially know you would get upset by my comments about a game where African-Americans overwhelmingly dominate. I guess Black people should just be happy with their place and not expect more in an industry where opportunity is supposed to be ramped. Next thing you are going to tell me a Black teacher should not expect to have success in a school district any more than the general population.

Peace