Regionalism in Officiating

[dblref]

@rainmaker

If this ref is so bad, and is constantly bad, why does Howard use him? Is there that much of a shortage in your area? My association had a similar individual about 4 years ago and the assignor told him point-blank that he would not receive any games (and we have trouble filling MS games) and the ref decided to drop out of the association.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by dblref
@rainmaker

If this ref is so bad, and is constantly bad, why does Howard use him? Is there that much of a shortage in your area? My association had a similar individual about 4 years ago and the assignor told him point-blank that he would not receive any games (and we have trouble filling MS games) and the ref decided to drop out of the association.

I don't know why. I don't even presume to understand Howard. He kept me when he probably shouldn't have. Maybe he thinks the guy will improve. I'm not sure what his thinking is.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Dan, in theory, I agree with everything you said. The reality is that this particular coach is one of the best in the country, and really carries weight around here. Usually, he's just a great guy, and he doesn't throw his weight around, as you might think from icallfoul's posts. The ref, on the other hand, is one of the worst in the country, and that's after 6 or 7 years of constantly getting put back into the classes again, and getting his schedule yanked and so on and so forth. There was little sympathy around here for that particular ref when this happened. In the situation which icallfouls described (which was in the newspaper the next morning), the coach may have been yelling, but I doubt he was over the top. He just doesn't go there. The ref over-reacted, as he has done often enough before, and then mis-applied the rules, and then did all those things in the JV game before one of the biggest games of the season. The ref made the coach go out onto the sidewalk, wouldn't even let him go to his own office, and the coach had to borrow a cell phone to call Howard. I expect there's not one person in the Portland Metropolitan Area who knows both the ref and the coach, and would side with the ref. He just plain blew it.

OK, so it seems I took the side of the worst ref/biggest jerk on the planet vs the best coach/greatest guy on the planet.

I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. In fact, to make it up next time I'm in portland let's all go and burn his house down.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I don't know why. I don't even presume to understand Howard. He kept me when he probably shouldn't have. Maybe he thinks the guy will improve. I'm not sure what his thinking is.

The guy has gotten better. Still not a very good ref...but better. I know of 1 or 2 that have been around the area that give him a run for his money.

I know the coach too...great guy...very classy. In working his games, I've heard rarely more than a basic question or a gentle comment.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[/B]

I know the coach too...great guy...very classy.
[/B][/QUOTE]I think that you need to find another adjective rather than "classy", Camron. He may be a good coach but he is hardly classy. "Classy" individuals, especially in his position, do NOT sit up in the stands with impressionable teenagers and parents and publically dump on a game official. If he had specific complaints about that official, he should have made them formally to Howard, not publically to anyone who wandered into the gym. If the official is that bad, then it's up to Howard and his association to do something about it.

Classy? Not freaking likely! And I don't have to meet him to form that opinion either. His actions speak for themselves.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I know the coach too...great guy...very classy.
[/B]

I think that you need to find another adjective rather than "classy", Camron. He may be a good coach but he is hardly classy. "Classy" individuals, especially in his position, do NOT sit up in the stands with impressionable teenagers and parents and publically dump on a game official. If he had specific complaints about that official, he should have made them formally to Howard, not publically to anyone who wandered into the gym. If the official is that bad, then it's up to Howard and his association to do something about it.

Classy? Not freaking likely! And I don't have to meet him to form that opinion either. His actions speak for themselves. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think you've been paying attention JR.

Once you realize he's the best coach/greatest guy on the planet you'll join our house-burning expedition.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I think that you need to find another adjective rather than "classy", Camron. He may be a good coach but he is hardly classy. "Classy" individuals, especially in his position, do NOT sit up in the stands with impressionable teenagers and parents and publically dump on a game official. If he had specific complaints about that official, he should have made them formally to Howard, not publically to anyone who wandered into the gym. If the official is that bad, then it's up to Howard and his association to do something about it.

Classy? Not freaking likely! And I don't have to meet him to form that opinion either. His actions speak for themselves. [/B]

I don't think you've been paying attention JR.

Once you realize he's the best coach/greatest guy on the planet you'll join our house-burning expedition. [/B][/QUOTE]Nah, I think that I'll leave my pitchfork and torch in the closet and not join the other townspeople on this one. There ain't much that I disagreed with in your previous posts, Slappy. Yeah, the official didn't handle the situation properly. That doesn't change the fact that the coach created the situation in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right. And one wrong sureashell doesn't make some yappy coach "classy" either imo.

Grumble, grumble, grumble.......

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't think you've been paying attention JR.

Once you realize he's the best coach/greatest guy on the planet you'll join our house-burning expedition. [/B]

Nah, I think that I'll leave my pitchfork and torch in the closet and not join the other townspeople on this one. There ain't much that I disagreed with in your previous posts, Slappy. Yeah, the official didn't handle the situation properly. That doesn't change the fact that the coach created the situation in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right. And one wrong sureashell doesn't make some yappy coach "classy" either imo.

Grumble, grumble, grumble....... [/B][/QUOTE]

And we still don't disagree, I was being sarcastic.

Like you say the coach created the mess and he got his butt tossed. The concept of professionalism goes both ways.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

[/B]

And we still don't disagree, I was being sarcastic.

[/B][/QUOTE]I knew that.

I would be disappointed if you weren't sarcastic.

[Goose]

Been away for a couple of days, but this issue strikes a cord with me since I moved from one geographical area (NE) to another (SE). These differences are such that I have really considered retiring from officiating. Yes, the differences ARE considerable.

The biggest, and I mean the biggest difference I've seen has to do with training and rule interpretation.

I came from an IAABO board who had in my opinion the best interpreter in the country, period! Our board did an excellent job in training and rule interpretation, so that is what I was used to.

Fast forward to Nov. last year, and I move to the southeast. Chaotic to say the least. Board meetings were complete by December. No meetings in January or February, but the season ends here first week of February, but I did inquire about any more meetings and it was simply stated to me that they "might" have another one. State requires officials to take a test. That test is neither IAABO nor FED, but is "made up" by the director of officials. He can put, and does put whatever he wants on the test. This state test also goes a long way in determining your ranking which in turn determines your varsity assignments. Of course this means, and was witnessed by myslef, that the good test takers get varisty assignments, but then again, just becasue one is good at taking tests, does not always translate into one being able to blow the whistle on the court. Again, I had the pleasure of working with one of these great test takers. To bad the game was not held on paper though.

Here are the regional issues that I saw first hand which haven't given me a warm and fuzzy.

Training or lack thereof. No wonder the highest rated official in my area (this is a huge area compared to the single county I moved from) is another transplanted IAABO official from the Northeast.

Interpretation: I was frankly shocked at the number of T's given out down here. Most wouldn't even have gotten a stare back in the NE. Basically, the players and coaches are extremely well mannered, which did not go unappreciated from myself, but most of the T's I saw, were given for extremely mild stuff if you ask me. I would never give a T for some of the stuff I heard or saw.

I believe this is really a cultural thing too. Maybe in the Northeast, we were more used to ruff and gruff stuff, and having spent 26 years in the inner city has a way of jading your eyes and ears, but people down here expect a certain behavior, and if anyone crosses the line, even in a minimal sense, bang! Most were shocked when I told them I let the coach talk to me. I'll always listen, after all, maybe there is a valid point to be made.

Coaching boxes, shirt tails, etc. These things are big down here. If the coach steps out of the box, bang! Shirt tail out? Stop game to re-tuck. I'm not saying these are not good things, but it can get to the point of being overly picky, especially with under a minute to play with Team A up by 20 and you are stopping the clock to get players to re-tuck. That's picky to me.

Police officers: Extremely visible down here. I was actually escorted out of a gym for the first time in 20 years by an officer this past winter. Never mind that the parking lot had emptied and I said I appreciate the thought but walking me to my car was not necessary. Still, the officer did their duty and walked me to my car. If they only knew past situations in the NE....they simply wouldn't believe that we did not have escorts. Note, this was an 8th grade game!!

Along with training, comes mechanics. There is a mish-mash of mechanics down here. Some good, most not so good. Again, this comes from proper training.

Ohh, minimal pre-game. We were supposed to be on site 1 hour before game time for a varsity assignment on my old board. Down here, your lucky to get guys to arrive 15 minutes before game time. Pre-games are basically non-existant and I told our director of officials that that was one thing I would change. Most guys come dressed now too, which is huge turn-off to me. No time after the game to talk. No shower, just put on the coat and out the door. I must say though, that the dressing facilities are much nicer down here than in the Northeast.

Last but not least, PAY. The pay here in the SE is horrible to say the least, and I'm not talking about the area I live in, but all over North, South Carolina, plus Georgia. The pay is the pits compared with the Northeast. No one could believe that we were getting 65 dollars for one varsity game. Down here, we get 57 for TWO varsity games played back to back. I won't even mention the sub-varsity pay, but let's just say I was getting more money for one 5-6th grade city rec league game that I get down here for TWO sub-varsity games, back to back.

Please don't get the wrong impression. I'm NOT saying the officials in the Southeast are bad and that the officials in the Northeast are great. I've worked with good and bad from both areas. I worked with the best woman official to date down here, and I must say, she was equally as good as any male official I have worked with. But there are regional differences and many of these have to do with the culture of the area.

One last thing. Fans! Frankly, I was shocked to see the gyms full of fans down here in the Southeast. It would have taken a really big game for the fans to come out in my previous area in the Northeast, but down here, I've seen 5-600 at an 8th grade game! My daughters HS gym holds 2600, and rivals any D-2, or D-3 gym I saw in the Northeast. All this with an enrollment of 1200 in grades 9-12. So, the fans do come out down here, even for the Jr-Hi levels, which is a good thing compared with fan levels in New England.

goose

[26 Year Gap]

The coach had a lot of class, but it was all low.

[stmaryrams]

They used to say on Fat Albert:

NCAA - No Class At All

[Almost Always Right]

I realize that the foundation of this thread was regionalism in all aspects of officiating but this has kind of taken a turn towards bench decorum and unsporting acts, having said that:
Is it safe to say that the line that an official draws in Washington state would be different than the line that the same official would draw in Louisiana(insert any 2 areas)?
Even though this same official could easily quantify and validate his/her actions, do we as officials really have to change that much when we go to a different area of the country?
I guess what I am asking is - If I am a good official in Montana, am I not as good in Massachusetts(insert any 2 areas)?

Signed,
Befuddled

AAR

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Almost Always Right
I realize that the foundation of this thread was regionalism in all aspects of officiating but this has kind of taken a turn towards bench decorum and unsporting acts, having said that:
Is it safe to say that the line that an official draws in Washington state would be different than the line that the same official would draw in Louisiana(insert any 2 areas)?
Even though this same official could easily quantify and validate his/her actions, do we as officials really have to change that much when we go to a different area of the country?
I guess what I am asking is - If I am a good official in Montana, am I not as good in Massachusetts(insert any 2 areas)?

Signed,
Befuddled

AAR

I believe good officials can adjust to where ever they are. I know I had to adjust when I moved in my own state. I really have to adjust to the different conferences I work. I think what philosophies are acceptable are greatly different base on where you live. If you want to maintain being a good official, you have to adjust if you move. Some areas do not even use 3 Person mechanics. So if you move from an area that uses 3 Person all the time for varsity that might be an adjustment.

Peace

[26 Year Gap]

We had a guy move here from Nevada before last season and he seemed to do pretty well.