Regionalism in Officiating

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by icallfouls

As an example, a few years ago we had an official that was working a JV game where the V coach was in the upper area of the gym, which makes him more of a fan than a coach in this case. The coach was commenting on the officiating. This coach has worked at the D1 level and regularly sends kids from his program to the D1 level as well. This only means that he has seen alot of basketball and has some credibility himself. Anyway, the referee decided to toss the coach rather than asking someone from game management to take care of it. The official told him that he would not be allowed to work the V game later that night. Needless to say, that official got a call from the assignor and had the remainder of his schedule suspended for that year.

I gotta tell you I am not impressed by your friend's behavior.

If that coach has experience up to D1 then he must realize JV officials generally work JV for a reason. Same reason, generally, that JV players play JV. As a "big time coach" he should have not lowered himself to fan status & should have just kept his damn comments to himself & worried about his own game which was to follow.

As for the official getting his schedule yanked - he's better off not having to work JV games for that assignor.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by icallfouls

I think that you might be missing JRut's point. My interpretation of what he said is that there are officials out there (could be anywhere) that prefer to give T's rather than take control of a particular situation. Officials that are not confident enough in themselves or do not like to have their calls challenged tend to hide behind T's rather than address specific situations.

I think his point is more along the lines that some referees lose their common sense and issue T's when they cannot deal with the situation in a different way. Alot of officials do not like to be questioned and when they are, they start "whacking" away.

That was exactly the point I was making. I had a situation yesterday where a coach thought I missed a call. He addressed my across the court and I answered his question in the same fashion. He thought I blew a call and he might have been right. I told the coach, "if you saw it that way then I was wrong, but I cannot just make a call based on what you saw." The coach did not say another word about a judgment call the rest of the game. It was clear he wanted to be heard and he knew I listened to him. Many younger officials would have just T'd up the coach and considered the coach asking a question as a front to his ability.

Originally posted by icallfouls
Ask most referees who have regularly worked at the state tournament, or on the college level in your area, and I would bet that most of them will say that game management will take care of alot of these situations. Get into a players ear, tell the coach that it is time to move on, etc. Coaches, players, and assignors would more often prefer this type of approach.

Danny Crawford who is in the NBA and from Illinois came to the IHSA Official's Conference last year and spoke at the basketball clinic and to all officials later in the conference. He brought a tape that was provided by the NBA that showed many clips of officials dealing with players and coaches. You saw many star players and big coaches complaining about calls and you got to hear what was said and how it was handled. What I learned most on the tape was how the officials just listened. Some times the officials did not even speak until the player or coach finished talking. They would very specifically address what the coach said and would move on. On the tape many times the players or coaches would not like what the officials said, but they were heard and the officials would walk away and make it clear what call was made.

On the tape there was even a funny exchange between Larry Brown and I believe Danny Crawford. Crawford asked Brown a question and let Brown run his mouth for about a minute and then Crawford T'd him up. It appeared this exchange was during a FT but Crawford listened to Brown and let him hang himself. Now if this was a HS game and gave a T, there was more than enough evidence to provide to the assignor without a tape. Instead many younger officials or red-*** officials would have T'd Brown up before he said the worst things and it would have been his said, he said situation. Brown in the exchange got personal, questioned the officialÂ’s integrity and used many profanities. The comments were near the bench and it would have been very difficult to hear them in any loud gym. It was just interesting to see how they handled players and that filtered into my game this year.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I gotta tell you I am not impressed by your friend's behavior.

If that coach has experience up to D1 then he must realize JV officials generally work JV for a reason. Same reason, generally, that JV players play JV. As a "big time coach" he should have not lowered himself to fan status & should have just kept his damn comments to himself & worried about his own game which was to follow.

As for the official getting his schedule yanked - he's better off not having to work JV games for that assignor.

Danref,

First of all this is not a friend of mine, merely an example of an official that might have done better trying to find a different approach to dealing with a difficult situation.

The coach chose to be a fan of his underclassmen and is entitled to his opinion. The program is under his direction and he is entitled watch their progress. JV players do swing up to V after all. As you know, fans (be they parents, coaches, AD's, teachers or whatever) just don't sit there quietly when they think an official has made a mistake or is wrong. They will tell you about it. They have a certain amount of rights to do so. The fan/coach in this situation was only commenting on the officiating and was not being profane, or making insensitive comments. As far as JV officials being JV officials for a reason, I do not disagree, but that doesn't give them license to misapply rules. It is hard for assignors to defend officials that misapply rules, they can defend judgment and hustle.

Second, in regard to the assignor pulling games and how they would be better served to not work for such an assignor. It is ignorant to think that this doesn't happen. Look at any level you choose, and you will find that referees have been suspended for various duration for various things. You certainly have a right to not work for any assignor, but in the end the assignor is responsible to the schools serviced. Like it or not, the schools have input on the officials that they want on their floors and the assignors take a certain amount of input from them. Coach K, for example gets to take ACC officials on non-conference road trips

[Edited by icallfouls on Jun 16th, 2005 at 02:10 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by icallfouls

Danref,

First of all this is not a friend of mine, merely an example of an official that might have done better trying to find a different approach to dealing with a difficult situation.

The coach chose to be a fan of his underclassmen and is entitled to his opinion. The program is under his direction and he is entitled watch their progress. JV players do swing up to V after all. As you know, fans (be they parents, coaches, AD's, teachers or whatever) just don't sit there quietly when they think an official has made a mistake or is wrong. They will tell you about it. They have a certain amount of rights to do so. The fan/coach in this situation was only commenting on the officiating and was not being profane, or making insensitive comments. As far as JV officials being JV officials for a reason, I do not disagree, but that doesn't give them license to misapply rules. It is hard for assignors to defend officials that misapply rules, they can defend judgment and hustle.

Second, in regard to the assignor pulling games and how they would be better served to not work for such an assignor. It is ignorant to think that this doesn't happen. Look at any level you choose, and you will find that referees have been suspended for various duration for various things. You certainly have a right to not work for any assignor, but in the end the assignor is responsible to the schools serviced. Like it or not, the schools have input on the officials that they want on their floors and the assignors take a certain amount of input from them. Coach K, for example gets to take ACC officials on non-conference road trips

[Edited by icallfouls on Jun 16th, 2005 at 02:10 PM]

Nothing you said here excuses what you claim is a big time coach from sitting in the stands acting like a jerk. A varsity HS coach has nothing in common with the nameless and faceless fans in the stands. If he wants to act like some jerk in the stands then he needs to take his punishment like any jerk in the stands and not get on the phone to ruin some JV official.

And I never said schedules aren't pulled. All I said was this official is better off not working JV games for that assignor who caves in under pressure from Mr Big Time Varsity Coach. If the success of his JV squad is so important to him maybe Mr Big Time Varsity Coach should sit on the bench and act as the JV assistant. Instead of yelling at the JV officials from the stands.

And I have no idea what the Coach K has to do with a JV HS game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by icallfouls


Second, in regard to the assignor pulling games and how they would be better served to not work for such an assignor. It is ignorant to think that this doesn't happen. Look at any level you choose, and you will find that referees have been suspended for various duration for various things. You certainly have a right to not work for any assignor, but in the end the assignor is responsible to the schools serviced. Like it or not, the schools have input on the officials that they want on their floors and the assignors take a certain amount of input from them. Coach K, for example gets to take ACC officials on non-conference road trips

I noticed another regional difference in your post. Not everyone has the option to work for who they like. That affects how certain rules are applied and to what extent they are applied. I work for multiple assignors and each has their own quirks they want followed or mechanics that they want applied. I have read many here talk about how their association elects the assignors or the association assignor gives them all their games. That does not happen here. The conferences hire their own assignors and if officials want to work for them, they must contact that assignor or attend that assignorÂ’s camp. Just because you work for one assignor does not mean other assignors will hire you. Assignors are clearly individuals and many do not like each other or respect each other.

Peace

[icallfouls]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Nothing you said here excuses what you claim is a big time coach from sitting in the stands acting like a jerk. A varsity HS coach has nothing in common with the nameless and faceless fans in the stands. If he wants to act like some jerk in the stands then he needs to take his punishment like any jerk in the stands and not get on the phone to ruin some JV official.

And I never said schedules aren't pulled. All I said was this official is better off not working JV games for that assignor who caves in under pressure from Mr Big Time Varsity Coach. If the success of his JV squad is so important to him maybe Mr Big Time Varsity Coach should sit on the bench and act as the JV assistant. Instead of yelling at the JV officials from the stands.

And I have no idea what the Coach K has to do with a JV HS game.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I will say this, regardless of whether or not the coach/fan was being a jerk does not matter. The official T'd up this fan (rules here are: if they are seated behind the bench in the first 2 rows, they are with the team, if not, they are considered fans) and then threw him out of the gym and informed him that he could not coach the V game. The official had other options and misapplied (not the first time) the rule, which is my point. The assignor cannot defend this, but hope that the official learns from it. BTW, the suspension lasted the rest of the season (4 or 5 games if I remember correctly). Misapplication of rules is a suspendable act available to assignors.

As far as coach K, it is merely an example, if it helps, this area allows schools to de-list (blackball if you prefer) up to 2 officials per year. The example is that coaches have input into who works where.

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I noticed another regional difference in your post. Not everyone has the option to work for who they like. That affects how certain rules are applied and to what extent they are applied. I work for multiple assignors and each has their own quirks they want followed or mechanics that they want applied. I have read many here talk about how their association elects the assignors or the association assignor gives them all their games. That does not happen here. The conferences hire their own assignors and if officials want to work for them, they must contact that assignor or attend that assignorÂ’s camp. Just because you work for one assignor does not mean other assignors will hire you. Assignors are clearly individuals and many do not like each other or respect each other.

Peace

You are right on every point. We have several different assignors around here (except HS). The saying is, if you're in so-and-so's gym, call the way they want it called.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by icallfouls


You are right on every point. We have several different assignors around here (except HS). The saying is, if you're in so-and-so's gym, call the way they want it called.

That is the same thing we say here. When I read this site I here officials having to listen to one person, one association for all their interpretations and officiating dealings. I belong to 8 different associations over 3 different sports. We have a lot of voices we have to listen to.

Peace

[SeanFitzRef]

In adding some backup to JRut, I'm also here in Illinois, and I work in several different conferences in my area. In the Chicago Public League, the assignors want you to let the players play and 'keep the whistles to a minimum'. Be more verbal during the course of the game. If I go to the South Suburbs, the level of play is different and the assignors want you to call a little tighter game. Be slightly verbal during the course of the game, but blow the whistle more. If I go to the west suburbs, they want it tighter still. Be less verbal during the course of the game, but blow the whistle even more.

Three different assignors, three different styles of play, three different styles of officiating. That is how we have to do it if we want to work in different conferences. But in all three cases, we still have to officiate the game, and manage the game.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by JAdams
Does anyone who posts to this board really have experience beyond one (or two at the most) states? Assuming the answer is no, then how can anyone really profess to know if there are regional differences? I say the sample size is way too small to be able to answer the question with facts. All of us merely have opinions.

I have officiated in Arizona, Mississippi, Nevada, Maryland and Washington DC for HS games.
Add West Virginia, Virginia and Utah for college.

Although I agree 100% that officials are different across the country I don't agree with JRUT's way of using this way more than the question is asked. It is almost used like a negative when something is done different in another part of the country. I can understand giving T's, talking and all of that because I think I can communicate either way. I just don't like for the same thing, or at least this thing , to be a negative whether it applies to me or not.

[drothamel]

Glad to see the thread started some spirited debate. I was worried for a little while there.


One thing that made me bring it up was that at the camp I went to this past weekend, in a totally different part of the country, the clinicians wanted alot of double whistles. I struggled with it, because everything I had previously been instructed to do put a premium on staying in your area and keeping double-whistles to an absolute minimum. I can understand the reason for both philosophies, and I found it very interesting that they are both out there.

I had never considered the influence that multiple assignors and associations can have, only because I have ever only belonged to one association. It does make sense, though, that it could add to the regionalism.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by tomegun


I have officiated in Arizona, Mississippi, Nevada, Maryland and Washington DC for HS games.
Add West Virginia, Virginia and Utah for college.

Although I agree 100% that officials are different across the country I don't agree with JRUT's way of using this way more than the question is asked. It is almost used like a negative when something is done different in another part of the country. I can understand giving T's, talking and all of that because I think I can communicate either way. I just don't like for the same thing, or at least this thing , to be a negative whether it applies to me or not.

Tommy,

If you feel what I said was a negative, then that is your opinion. I am just saying that you work for different people and different areas; different things are expected of you. If giving Ts is expected and you are supported, then that is not at all a bad thing. We have been told to be much stricter with our coaching box enforcement. I love that attitude as long as we are supported by the people in the state office.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Tommy,

If you feel what I said was a negative, then that is your opinion. I am just saying that you work for different people and different areas; different things are expected of you. If giving Ts is expected and you are supported, then that is not at all a bad thing. We have been told to be much stricter with our coaching box enforcement. I love that attitude as long as we are supported by the people in the state office.

Peace

Rut, I can get with that and if that is the way you meant it from the start I apologize.

[brainbrian]

Originally posted by JAdams
Does anyone who posts to this board really have experience beyond one (or two at the most) states

I heard mine from a guy who has moved from state to state a few times, but didn't ever work in more than one state at a time.

So, let's see, in my region it's highly frowned upon calling outside your primary coverage area, even if you're positive it's a foul and you know your partner didn't see it because it makes you look bad. Any other regions teach that?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Nothing you said here excuses what you claim is a big time coach from sitting in the stands acting like a jerk. A varsity HS coach has nothing in common with the nameless and faceless fans in the stands.

And I never said schedules aren't pulled. All I said was this official is better off not working JV games for that assignor who caves in under pressure from Mr Big Time Varsity Coach. If the success of his JV squad is so important to him maybe Mr Big Time Varsity Coach should sit on the bench and act as the JV assistant. Instead of yelling at the JV officials from the stands.

Dan, in theory, I agree with everything you said. The reality is that this particular coach is one of the best in the country, and really carries weight around here. Usually, he's just a great guy, and he doesn't throw his weight around, as you might think from icallfoul's posts. The ref, on the other hand, is one of the worst in the country, and that's after 6 or 7 years of constantly getting put back into the classes again, and getting his schedule yanked and so on and so forth. There was little sympathy around here for that particular ref when this happened. In the situation which icallfouls described (which was in the newspaper the next morning), the coach may have been yelling, but I doubt he was over the top. He just doesn't go there. The ref over-reacted, as he has done often enough before, and then mis-applied the rules, and then did all those things in the JV game before one of the biggest games of the season. The ref made the coach go out onto the sidewalk, wouldn't even let him go to his own office, and the coach had to borrow a cell phone to call Howard. I expect there's not one person in the Portland Metropolitan Area who knows both the ref and the coach, and would side with the ref. He just plain blew it.