A couple of 3-whistle questions

[rainmaker]

I'm up to my ears in 3-whistle the last few weeks, because of some clinics I've been organizing. Here are some things that remain unanswered in my mind.

1) How far across the floor should trail be standing normally? It seems to be different in different leagues, and I'm not sure if there's a "prescribed" spot on the floor.

2) Can anyone tell me definitely whether men's officials tend to rotate less than women's? Is this a real tendency? Or just my imagination?

If it's real, is this because the game is different?

3) Why can't I find a men's official in the city of Portland that knows where his mechanics manual is?!? I've got like 4 or 5 women's manuals from various people, but every men's official I've asked says, "It's around here somewhere. But it's last year's." Or, "I don't think there is a mechanics manual. DO you mean the rule book? NCAA rules are on line." What heretofore hidden gene dictates this behavior?

4) Is it true in 3-whistle that the ultimate sin is calling across the paint? If there's anything worse, I need to know now, before I get in any more deeply.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'm up to my ears in 3-whistle the last few weeks, because of some clinics I've been organizing. Here are some things that remain unanswered in my mind.

1) How far across the floor should trail be standing normally? It seems to be different in different leagues, and I'm not sure if there's a "prescribed" spot on the floor.

2) Can anyone tell me definitely whether men's officials tend to rotate less than women's? Is this a real tendency? Or just my imagination?

If it's real, is this because the game is different?

3) Why can't I find a men's official in the city of Portland that knows where his mechanics manual is?!? I've got like 4 or 5 women's manuals from various people, but every men's official I've asked says, "It's around here somewhere. But it's last year's." Or, "I don't think there is a mechanics manual. DO you mean the rule book? NCAA rules are on line." What heretofore hidden gene dictates this behavior?

4) Is it true in 3-whistle that the ultimate sin is calling across the paint? If there's anything worse, I need to know now, before I get in any more deeply.

First, let me point out I'm coming from HS and NCAA-W, so there may be some slight differences in NCAA-M.

1)I've been taught the trail's "home" spot is about the 28' mark, about 2 ft. out unto the floor. Then they can move in a semi-circle, from near half court further out on the court to close to the free throw line extended along the sideline. It would all be based on getting the proper angle for watching the players in your area.
2) I think women's officials do rotate a little more often than men's. I think it might have to do with more passing and more screens being set in the women's game, so it's a little more important for the lead to be ball-side.
3) It's just a "male" thing, because I'm also a women's official, and I know my manual is around here somewhere...
4) The ultimate sin is not calling an OOB play even though the player's feet are just barely on the line. (Oops, wrong thread. ) Actually, the lead should not be calling across the lane becaust that's the C's territory. And we've been taught to have a "strong" C, so they should have that drive, rebound, etc., not the L.

Hope that's a start.

[BktBallRef]

1) When? During play? During FTs?

I'm not very far out on the floor, maybe 3 feet at the most during play. During FTs, I move closer to the circle, so as to not interfere with the coach behind me who may be trying to communicate with his players at the other end.

2) HS ball? Girls tend to pass the ball from side to side more, with the ball not settling as often. Therefore, we don't rotate as much in girls' ball.

3) All I have is an Officials Manual. I don't have a women's manual and a men's manual. If you're talking about the NCAA manual, it is available online.

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/baske...ingProgram.pdf


4) I don't know that there is an "ultimate sin." But I can think of far worse things than reaching across the paint. It's okay in theory that you don't want to reach across the paint. But the reality is that you have to do it sometimes.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker
1) How far across the floor should trail be standing normally? It seems to be different in different leagues, and I'm not sure if there's a "prescribed" spot on the floor.

In college and HS you should move as the ball moves. Not to make it too complicated, you should mirror the ball to some extent. If the ball crosses, you close down (move closer to the lane) and get ready to rotate. You should not stay in the same place.

Originally posted by rainmaker
2) Can anyone tell me definitely whether men's officials tend to rotate less than women's? Is this a real tendency? Or just my imagination?

If it's real, is this because the game is different?

NCAA Women's mechanics move where the ball is regardless of the ball settling. NCAA Men's and NF mechanics are only supposed to rotate when the ball settles. Also NCAA Women's has different coverage area all together for the lead (they have 3 point coverage) and is one of the reasons for more rotations.

Originally posted by rainmaker
3) Why can't I find a men's official in the city of Portland that knows where his mechanics manual is?!? I've got like 4 or 5 women's manuals from various people, but every men's official I've asked says, "It's around here somewhere. But it's last year's." Or, "I don't think there is a mechanics manual. DO you mean the rule book? NCAA rules are on line." What heretofore hidden gene dictates this behavior?

I cannot speak for officials in your area at all. All I can say is that Men's mechanics are much more inline with the NF. So many of the teachings at the Men's NCAA level are the exact same I have received at HS camps or from clinicians. Maybe it could be that you know more Women's college officials. Who really knows what the deal is.

Originally posted by rainmaker
4) Is it true in 3-whistle that the ultimate sin is calling across the paint? If there's anything worse, I need to know now, before I get in any more deeply.

I would not say it was the ultimate sin, but something you really should not make a habit of doing. I really do hate it when a lead official makes a call that the center had a better look at. If you are going to call things across the lane or watch things across the lane, then that official should rotate.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

I don't know if it is any worse, but it is as least as bad to call outside the 3pt line as the Lead, especially above the FT line extended!
(This doesn't apply as strictly to NCAAW because as Rut said they have a different floor coverage scheme and the Lead has the corner area below the FT line extended.)
The point is the same, however, you are calling (and looking in) someone else's area. If the officials are going to do that, then there is no reason to have three of them out there.
It is my experience the most of the older officials who were trained with and did many games and years in the 2-whistle system are the ones who call across the lane and otherwise out of their primary areas. They are simply used to looking there and making that call. It is difficult for them to adjust to the 3-whistle system because of this.

[rainmaker]

Wow -- y'all are the best!!

Anyone who disagrees, or has a different angle, or wishes they could unload a pet peeve, Feel Free!! I appreciate all the input I can get.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Anyone who disagrees, or has a different angle, or wishes they could unload a pet peeve, Feel Free!! I appreciate all the input I can get.

I got one.

How come wimmen in front of you in the express checkout line at the supermarket never get their wallets out of their purses before the cashier is done? They wait, and then they have to open their suitcase and rummage through it in the hope that there really is a wallet in there somewhere. After that, it's look-for-coupons time, followed closely by "I've got the change here somewhere".

Why is that?

Grumble, grumble, grumble.......

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I got one.

How come wimmen in front of you in the express checkout line at the supermarket never get their wallets out of their purses before the cashier is done? They wait, and then they have to open their suitcase and rummage through it in the hope that there really is a wallet in there somewhere. After that, it's look-for-coupons time, followed closely by "I've got the change here somewhere".

Why is that?

Grumble, grumble, grumble.......

Yea! And, what about when you're drivin' down the road, mindin' your own business, and you pull up behind a car at a stoplight, and when the light turns green, THEN they turn on their left turn blinker.

More grumble...

[Junker]

What everyone else has said is pretty universal I think. I've never heard anything different. As far as reaching across the lane, you don't want to make a habit of it, but as always, if there's a train wreck, be patient, if the C doesn't grab it, you need to go get it. My biggest adjustment in going to 3 whistle (I should do this in two, but it doesn't seem to be as much a problem) is to make sure on a jump ball in the lane I just come in with my hand open, hitting the whistle and stopping play. I have the bad habit of going straight to the jump ball mechanic and in 3 whistle, with the extra pair of eyes, sometimes your C has a foul. I'm just adding that because writing it pounds it into my head.


[Edited by Junker on May 20th, 2005 at 10:08 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I don't know if it is any worse, but it is as least as bad to call outside the 3pt line as the Lead, especially above the FT line extended!

Agreed. Also, I have a lot less problem with the L reaching across the lane than I would if the T were to do it. And I've seen it happen!!!

It's not unusual in the college or pro game to see the C reach across the line. Watch an NBA game and you'll see officials reaching to make a call that has to be made. As for the L, if the ball is opposite, outside the lane, he should be moving to the strong side anyway. So he shouldn't be in a position to reach across, unless he is just being lazy.

BTW M&M, that person is going around the world to the left.

[tmp44]

Originally posted by Junker
What everyone else has said is pretty universal I think. I've never heard anything different. As far as reaching across the lane, you don't want to make a habit of it, but as always, if there's a train wreck, be patient, if the C doesn't grab it, you need to go get it. My biggest adjustment in going to 3 whistle (I should do this in two, but it doesn't seem to be as much a problem) is to make sure on a jump ball in the lane I just come in with my hand open, hitting the whistle and stopping play. I have the bad habit of going straight to the jump ball mechanic and in 3 whistle, with the extra pair of eyes, sometimes your C has a foul. I'm just adding that because writing it pounds it into my head.


[Edited by Junker on May 20th, 2005 at 10:08 AM]

I may be wrong on this because I don't have my books with me, but when looking at the mechanics pages in the FED book, doesn't it say to just come straight up with the "jump ball" signal? For example, if I remember correctly, when looking at that chart, anytime you have a violation, it shows you to put the hand up plus the violation mechanic. For the jump ball, it does not show to put the hand up first, only to go straight to the "thumbs in the air."

That being said, Junker your point is well taken, and if I am wrong on what I said above here, is something that I will incorporate into my game.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by rainmaker

1) How far across the floor should trail be standing normally? It seems to be different in different leagues, and I'm not sure if there's a "prescribed" spot on the floor.

Well, it seems like you're the one teaching the mechanics, so you get to decide, based on what works best for you. I've become a fan of the half-moon trail - moving onto or off of the court as much as needed to have a good angle on a drive (it was taught to me by a . . . wait for it . . . SEC official). On TV, I've even seen trails who go over as far as the opposite FT lane line extended (during closely guarded counts, obviously).

4) Is it true in 3-whistle that the ultimate sin is calling across the paint? If there's anything worse, I need to know now, before I get in any more deeply.

I don't know about ultimate sin, but I always teach that if you're looking over there anyways, you might as well rotate over. I think the biggest 'sin' in 3-person is when there's a blatant train wreck and no one calls it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I've become a fan of the half-moon trail (it was taught to me by a . . . wait for it . . . SEC official).

I've always been in favor of giving coaches who deserve it the full moon.

[ChuckElias]

Ok, I'll throw in two cents worth. . .

Originally posted by rainmaker
1) How far across the floor should trail be standing normally? It seems to be different in different leagues, and I'm not sure if there's a "prescribed" spot on the floor.

I think you've got good advice on this so far. Generally, my starting point is the top of the 3-point arc (roughly the 28-ft line) and a couple steps onto the court. I agree with Mark that the Trail should use that "follow the arc" mentality.

I've also seen Trail officials go almost halfway across the court to continue a 5-second count when the dribbler has moved into the C's primary. I happen to like that, although I don't know if it's widely accepted.

I think you will start to see in the women's NCAA mechanics that the will have the Trail start out farther out onto the floor. In my last couple camps with (wait for it) SEC affiliation, they have talked about the the Trail in transition being more in the center of the court. So when the Trail gets into the frontcourt, he/she is probably 10-15 feet onto the floor. What I was told is that in transition as Trail, I should be coming up the court on the "volleyball" line, if you can picture what I mean. On a lot of basketball courts, there are also volleyball markings. Well, it was suggested to me that the Trail follow the volleyball line up the floor. Obviously, when you get to the frontcourt, this puts you much more than one or two steps onto the floor.

The reason I say you will see it in the women's game is that the camps I mentioned generally stress pro mechanics/philosophy, which is what the women's mechanics generally follow.

2) Can anyone tell me definitely whether men's officials tend to rotate less than women's? Is this a real tendency? Or just my imagination?

It's not your imagination. It definitely happens. As somebody else pointed out, it's b/c women move to where the ball is, even if it hasn't settled. Why? B/c they follow the pro mechanics. And if you watch the NBA officials, they don't wait for the ball to settle. Their goal is to complete their rotation before the ball is passed into the opposite post. So they don't wait for the ball to settle. If the ball moves across the lane, so do they.

3) Why can't I find a men's official in the city of Portland that knows where his mechanics manual is?!?

In case you haven't figured it out by now, Juulie. . . men are idiots. 'Nuff said.

4) Is it true in 3-whistle that the ultimate sin is calling across the paint?

It's pretty close to the ultimate sin. As others have said, there are worse things, but those things are just as bad in a 2-whistle game. Sometimes, tho, you have to do it. Last season, I was Lead, table-side. Ball swung quickly opposite. A1 drove down the opposite lane line and took a lay-up. B1 just keeps moving under A1, bumping him below the waist and basically taking his feet away. A1 came down hard on his hip and hit his head. No whistle from my C. Come on, blow the whistle!!!! Nothing. So I blew mine. My partner at C is a respected, long-time, good official. But it's the first time I've worked with him and it was obviously out of my area. So I'm a little nervous about making the call. After I reported it to the table, my partner at T said, "Thank God we had something on that." So I instantly felt completely relieved.

Anyway, you don't want to do it unless you're sure you have to have it. This post is way longer than it should be. Sorry.

[rockyroad]

Two comments to add to the discussion - 1)the Trail needs to go wherever they need to be to call the play. As Chuck said, that has changed the "normal" view of the T having a certain spot on the floor where they go to/stand...if the T needs to be out on the court and below the head of the key - get there to be in position to make the call...2)calling across the key is only a "sin" if it is an on-ball call. In other words, if you see something away from the ball and it needs to be called, go get it...example: ball is on C's side above the free throw line extended, L has closed down but not rotated and we have: a)post players moving across the key to low post, and defender shoves post off the low block, or b)an illegal screen set at the high post corner of the key...C has the ball so L and T can certainly come "across" the key to make those calls...I think it does a disservice to the game to say that we "never" call across the key...