TC vs PC

rainmaker · #1 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 11:12am

The new TC foul has brought some uncertainty (well, it has increased the uncertainty!) in my mind. Here are my questions.

1) A1 drives to the basket and begins her shooting motion. Before the ball is released, A2 fouls B2. Ball is dead, no shot? B gets ball oob?

2) A1 drives to the basket, and after releasing the ball on a shot, contacts B1. PC, right? Ball is dead, B gets ball oob?

3) A1 drives to the basket and she releases the ball on a shot. Then A2 fouls B2. Basket counts if it goes, then and B gets the ball oob? If it doesn't go, play is killed and B gets ball oob?

4) So PC and TC are different if the foul happens after the release? PC kills the ball, TC doesn't. Correct?

5) And continuous motion does not apply to TC?

rainmaker · #2 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 11:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

5) And continuous motion does not apply to TC?

No, wait. Continuous motion DOES apply to TC?

But if the shooter...

no the foul is off-ball...

AUGH!! I'm so confused!

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 11:55am

Juulie,

Nothing changes except any foul by a team in control does not shoot FTs. What would you do if this rule was not in place as it relates to the basket counting? The reason for this rule is not shoot FTs on these kinds of fouls, not to change the other rules already in place.

Peace

Mark Dexter · #4 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 11:56am

Juulie,

For #4 - when does team control end?

JRut seems to have it right. You may want to take a look at the NCAA rulebook to get a better understanding of team control fouls.

Of course, until the actual rulebook comes out, we're all speculating a bit.

rainmaker · #5 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 12:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Of course, until the actual rulebook comes out, we're all speculating a bit.

Yes, that's very true.

One thing that confuses me is that the college rule for PC is different for men and women as it relates to contact after the shot is released, right?

The other thing I'm having trouble with is that it just starts to feel as though PC and TC will become the same, and then I get vertigo trying to switch back to two different things.

Also, the comments on the NFHS website say that "..the change makes the penalty consistent for a player-control foul and a team-control foul. In addition, the change reduces delays in the game. The rule only applies when a foul occurs by the team in control. By rule, there is no team control during a throw-in, jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal." So, since there's no team control after the ball is released on a shot, then fouls by the shooting team are not TC, right? Which means we shoot if we're in the bonus? It gets very confusing!

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 12:14pm

Team control has not changed. If Team A fouls while they have team control, Team B does not shoot FTs. That's the only thing that has changed. You don't need to change anything else with the way you've handled foul situations. You simply have to know if there was TC when the foul occurred, just like you had to know if a player had committed a PC foul or if he had passed the ball before contact.

JRutledge · #7 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

Yes, that's very true.

One thing that confuses me is that the college rule for PC is different for men and women as it relates to contact after the shot is released, right?

Yes, but that does not change the application of the rule. Men's basketball just does not have the same airborne shooter rule. If the ball is released, you have no team control. It is that simple.

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
The other thing I'm having trouble with is that it just starts to feel as though PC and TC will become the same, and then I get vertigo trying to switch back to two different things.

Also, the comments on the NFHS website say that "..the change makes the penalty consistent for a player-control foul and a team-control foul. In addition, the change reduces delays in the game. The rule only applies when a foul occurs by the team in control. By rule, there is no team control during a throw-in, jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal." So, since there's no team control after the ball is released on a shot, then fouls by the shooting team are not TC, right? Which means we shoot if we're in the bonus? It gets very confusing!

Juulie, you really are think about this too much. This rule is only to reduce the FT opportunities for the team that was fouled by the team in control. If the all is shot and you have a rebounding foul, the same rules apply as normal. All you are determining is whether you shoot FTs or not. That is why the NF says that PC and TC fouls will be consistently applied.

Peace

ChuckElias · #8 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
1) A1 drives to the basket and begins her shooting motion. Before the ball is released, A2 fouls B2. Ball is dead, no shot? B gets ball oob?

No different from last year. Continuous motion only applies when the defense commits a foul. So if A2 commits a foul before A1 releases the ball, we have an immediate dead ball. And the ball is awarded to B OOB.

The only difference from last year is, of course, that if B is in the bonus, they will not shoot FTs this year.

Quote:

2) A1 drives to the basket, and after releasing the ball on a shot, contacts B1. PC, right? Ball is dead, B gets ball oob?

No different from last year.

Quote:

3) A1 drives to the basket and she releases the ball on a shot. Then A2 fouls B2. Basket counts if it goes, then and B gets the ball oob? If it doesn't go, play is killed and B gets ball oob?

No different from last year. (Sensing a theme here?

) Since the ball is in the air, we count it if it goes. If it doesn't go in, then the ball is awarded to B OOB or (since there's no team control) B2 shoots FTs if B is in the bonus.

Quote:

4) So PC and TC are different if the foul happens after the release? PC kills the ball, TC doesn't. Correct?

Not exactly. The better way to think about it is that there is no TC foul after the release. Why? Because there is no team control after the release.

Quote:

5) And continuous motion does not apply to TC?

Continuous motion does not apply to any foul that is committed by a member of the offensive team. Continuous motion only applies when a defender commits a foul.

canuckrefguy · #9 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 12:50pm

If you have a foul on the shooter after release, the hoop counts if it goes in NCAA men, but not in NCAA women - not sure which interpretation NFHS is picking up.

If there is a personal foul by either team after release, bonus shots are awarded.

I had a sitch where A1 shot a three-pointer, and B2 fouled A2 just after the shot was released. The basket went, A was in double bonus, A2 shot a pair and got a five-point play.

Similarly, I also had the same situation, except it was A2 who fouled B2. We counted the three, went to the other end and shot twice.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
If you have a foul on the shooter after release, the hoop counts if it goes in NCAA men, but not in NCAA women - not sure which interpretation NFHS is picking up.

What do you mean "picking up." The TC foul in the NCAA did not change as a result of this rule. The NF will keep the
same interpretation they always have had.

Peace

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 01:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
If you have a foul on the shooter after release, the hoop counts if it goes in NCAA men, but not in NCAA women - not sure which interpretation NFHS is picking up.

This doesn't really matter to the PC/TC discussion, does it? NCAA men and women differ in the PC/airborne shooter rule, but they are the same in all applications of the TC foul rule.

canuckrefguy · #12 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 01:36pm

Someone asked about foul on the shooter after release...maybe I misinterpreted the question.

Bottom line here, IMO, is that Fed is simplifying the PC/TC rule for you. I still remember having the pass-n-crash, and sorting out foul, bonus, shooter, blah blah blah. Much simpler now

blindzebra · #13 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 02:22pm

Not to harp on it, Juulie but it is really simple if you think of it like this:

One foul with an exception for an airborne shooter.

Concentrate on 4-12 and you should not have any problems.

rainmaker · #14 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 10:57pm

Okay, you make it sound easy, but I'm not convinced.

If the ball is released and then there's a foul by a player who was on offense before the release, then do we shoot ft's (assuming we're in the bonus)? If it's the shooter, no. But what about away from the ball? Since there's no team control after the release, it's not a TC foul? To me this sounds more complicated, not more simple.

JRutledge · #15 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 11:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay, you make it sound easy, but I'm not convinced.

If the ball is released and then there's a foul by a player who was on offense before the release, then do we shoot ft's (assuming we're in the bonus)? If it's the shooter, no. But what about away from the ball? Since there's no team control after the release, it's not a TC foul? To me this sounds more complicated, not more simple.

If there is no team control, you cannot have a team control foul. It is just that simple. Do not confuse this with a PC foul. They are only the same as it relates to not shooting FTs.

You are going to look back on this conversation and laugh when you realize how easy this rule is.

Peace