free throw lane issues

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Jim --

I'm not sure you see the picture clearly of the sitch. It appears to me as though

player A stepped across the lane
player B stepped across the lane
then player A stepped back again
player B stepped back again
here, I suspect, ref said, "Hey, guys, enough."
but they both stepped across again
ref then says, "Next spot is it."
player A then stepped across again
Now ref bounces ball, and shooter misses.
then they start stepping back and forth again!

It appears to me that this all happened in one free throw, not over several free throw sets over several minutes.

At what point would you have issued a warning? When would you stop the free throw sequence to track down the captain? Would it make the game better to stop everything and ask the coach to talk to his player? Which coach? When all this action happens so quickly one thing on top of the other, does it make sense to stop everything to get the coach involved? Or were you thinking they had done this several times during several free throw sets? How is the ref forfeiting control to tell the players to stop it and then issuing a T when they don't stop? It seems to me that it's taking control, not giving it up. I don't understand your point of view.

Rainmaker,

Read my example about the same play in the state championship final, are you going to make this call? You cannot convince me that this is the right call for any championship game. If there are two perpetrators, then why didn't both get whacked for this as others have suggested here? Team A was un"fair"ly penalized in this situation and the referees wound up having a direct impact on the game.

I believe that these officials were having a great game and this call was not the right call at the right time, or place.

Now, if this is my game. Player A moves to their spot of preference, but Player B follows. I say "hold your spots" and bounce the ball to the FT shooter and I back out. If A starts to move, A is violating. It doesn't seem too hard to take care of to me. Player A was being difficult, but had come to a set position as Player B was following. Once B got positioned, A decided to move again. Put the ball into play, be more efficient with dead ball situations is my suggestion to stop the insanity.

There are other tools we can use for this situation and these needed to be explored first.

I want to reference 8-1-4f. I would guess that in this game since it was close, that all lane spaces were filled. Thus moving to an occupied space is not possible in this situation. Further, if we examine Rule 8-1, you can call the violation or double violation. Player A's delaying tactic was not warned in this game. I liken this tactic to a huddle in the key which prevents FT administration (thus an official warning would be called first).

Also, reference NCAA manual 8-1-2, "After allowing reasonable time for players to take their positions, the official shall put the ball in play ..."

9-1-2f will also help to explain my position. Specifically, delay the free thrower.

This has been a great discussion, but no one here has convinced me that they would call a T or support this call in a championship game. If they would, I don't think that they are being honest.

[Edited by icallfouls on May 12th, 2005 at 12:17 PM]

[ysong]

Originally posted by ysong
I believe the double T is the best solution under this circumstance. Thanks for sharing your insights.

But I still have some questions:

1.What if this happens early in the game when the T does not decide the outcome of the game? is double T still the preferred solution?

2.the rules require the defense fill the bottom 2 slots, and give the shooting team some options to choose. But is the order of the events implied here by the rules? i,e, the defense has to set first, then offense choose their spots? (at first glance, I think the order is implied. but when I read it again, I am not really sure now.)

If the order is implied by the rules, then should the defense side be given the warning first?

Thanks.

Please, can someone at least tell me "I understand it"?

[deecee]

I don't really agree with the double t here as i had only adressed the offensive player since he was the one initiating this whole farse.

From a standpoint of not effecting the game I can see why we would go to a double T however that's not fair to the defense who i never explicitly asked to hold their spot -- I didn't feel as though what the defense was doing was wrong they were just matching up and the offense was the one tooling around.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by icallfouls
[
Read my example about the same play in the state championship final, are you going to make this call? You cannot convince me that this is the right call for any championship game. If there are two perpetrators, then why didn't both get whacked for this as others have suggested here? Team A was un"fair"ly penalized in this situation and the referees wound up having a direct impact on the game.

I believe that these officials were having a great game and this call was not the right call at the right time, or place.

Now, if this is my game. Player A moves to their spot of preference, but Player B follows. I say "hold your spots" and bounce the ball to the FT shooter and I back out. If A starts to move, A is violating. It doesn't seem too hard to take care of to me. Player A was being difficult, but had come to a set position as Player B was following. Once B got positioned, A decided to move again. Put the ball into play, be more efficient with dead ball situations is my suggestion to stop the insanity.

There are other tools we can use for this situation and these needed to be explored first.

I want to reference 8-1-4f. I would guess that in this game since it was close, that all lane spaces were filled. Thus moving to an occupied space is not possible in this situation. Further, if we examine Rule 8-1, you can call the violation or double violation. Player A's delaying tactic was not warned in this game. I liken this tactic to a huddle in the key which prevents FT administration (thus an official warning would be called first).

Jim -- thanks that makes your position clearer. In the original situation, the T came after the first free throw. It sounds as though it wasn't so much for delaying as for deliberately disobeying the referee. I think if I were lead in this situation, I'd give The Look to players A and B as soon as the ball was shot. Then quickly get the ball back in play, as you suggest. However, if either of them moved before I had a chance to accomplish that, I'd say something short, and then if they moved again, I'd whack them. Yes, I think I'd do that even in a state tournament game. (This may not be something I'll evr have to worry about). I can't imagine Brad Smith letting his players get away with this kind of crap. I can't think of a state tournament coach that would. (Although the Jesuit girls' coach would yell at the refs when they called it, and then yell at the player later. She yells about everything!)

[Dan_ref]

Ya know what's great about this thread?

After all these pages the only thing that icallfouls and deecee can agree on is that they both disagree with Chuck!

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by deecee
I don't really agree with the double t here as i had only adressed the offensive player since he was the one initiating this whole farse.

From a standpoint of not effecting the game I can see why we would go to a double T however that's not fair to the defense who i never explicitly asked to hold their spot -- I didn't feel as though what the defense was doing was wrong they were just matching up and the offense was the one tooling around.

DC

If two players square off as if to fight, are you just going to T up one of them? I doubt you would. You and I T them both to let them know both were caught. If T'ing a player(s) is your solution then you are better served getting both.

I know that we have gone around and around on this, and I guess we will just have to say that we handle some things differently. But look back at these posts (60+ responses and many more reviews), I don't see alot of support for your T in this situation from more of the "senior" members, because they know that the call did not improve the game. A more aggressive approach to putting the ball back in play might have gone a long way to preventing the entire thing. The call in question is a rarity because we as officials generally won't let it get as far as it did. My only point has been to offer a different way to handle things regardless of who thinks its right or wrong. We as officials are allowed to make rulings on items not specifically covered in the rules. I think that was a take charge situation that could have been better handled.

As far as who gets to decide who guards who. Most situations on the lane have an offensive player that finds their spot, the defense will then adjust. Example, 6'5" stud for the offense takes the right lane line, the intial defender is 6'0" and average, coach is telling kids to switch up. Other defender is 6'4" or a better rebounder or whatever, then moves to better position themselves so that Team B have a better chance at the rebound.

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by bballrob
The rulebook states something to the effect of "Failure to comply with the request of an official" as being grounds for a T. Good call. And what the hell, call it in the State Championship too, if the kids won't listen. Bottom line is, this WASN'T a state championship High School or College game. It was "adult"(if you can call them that) rec league game. Well done.

Fine.
Call that in your state high school championship game and it will be your last high school championship game. Talk to the vets in your area and ask them if they make that call. The answer is no, better game management would have solved this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bballrob
[/B]

Just cause they've posted a bunch of psychobabble on chuck's annual baseball thread doesn't mean they deserve more respect then the rest of us. "SENIOR MEMBER" don't mean squat other then it shows you got too much time on your hands.

[/B][/QUOTE]Ooooooooo.

Ol' BushRef has still got that burr under his butt.

Got a new name picked out yet for your next return?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Just cause they've posted a bunch of psychobabble on chuck's annual baseball thread doesn't mean they deserve more respect then the rest of us. "SENIOR MEMBER" don't mean squat other then it shows you got too much time on your hands.

[/B]

Ooooooooo.

Ol' BushRef has still got that burr under his butt.

Got a new name picked out yet for your next return? [/B][/QUOTE]

I suggest Angry Little Boy.

btw...you posting psychobabble on Chuck's annual baseball thread again? I thought we got you to cut it out.

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by bballrob

Speak for yourself man. YOU may only T them both, but I'm tossing em both, and I'd bet that DC is going to as well, but I'll let him make that known.

Just cause they've posted a bunch of psychobabble on chuck's annual baseball thread doesn't mean they deserve more respect then the rest of us. "SENIOR MEMBER" don't mean squat other then it shows you got too much time on your hands.

[Edited by bballrob on May 12th, 2005 at 03:37 PM]

Understand that neither player in my example was going to fight. Check your definition of a fight. It requires an attempt to hit, among other things. Watch some of the NCAA games where this happens. No one gets tossed, unless punches are thrown, for squaring off. Talk to anyone who has been there. Ask them, tell them about the free throw situation, and then tell them about this one. You've got to understand the game grasshopper.

Senior members, I was refering to the referees who actually know how to officiate under big time pressure, officials that have worked the state playoffs/championships, or college tournaments/playoffs, etc. We have some here.

Its time to golf. L8R

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

btw...you posting psychobabble on Chuck's annual baseball thread again? I thought we got you to cut it out. [/B]

Hell, my middle name is pychobabble.

Woody Pyschobabble Jurassicref.

Btw, ol' BushRef is a Cubs' fan.

Kinda appropriate, dontya think?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by icallfouls

You've got to understand the game grasshopper.

Senior members, I was refering to the referees who actually know how to officiate under big time pressure, officials that have worked the state playoffs/championships, or college tournaments/playoffs, etc. We have some here.

[/B][/QUOTE]I have seen the error of my ways. Let me apologize to all of the big time referees out there that support your stance. Gee, when I grow up, I can only hope and dream that I might possibly learn to be able to officiate under big time pressure too.

Yup, us l'il grasshoppers have got their big time hopes too.

I hereby defer to your brilliant officiating knowledge.

We are not worthy!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Gee, when if I grow up, I can only hope and dream that I might possibly learn to be able to officiate under big time pressure too.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Fixed it for ya.

[tmp44]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Gee, when if I grow up, I can only hope and dream that I might possibly learn to be able to officiate under big time pressure too.

Fixed it for ya. [/B][/QUOTE]

Is there any popcorn left or should I go make some more?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Gee, when if I grow up, I can only hope and dream that I might possibly learn to be able to officiate under big time pressure too.

Fixed it for ya. [/B][/QUOTE]Well.....I'm damn well doing my best not to!

I'm gonna live in Neverland.

Nope, not the one where I have to sleep with Mikey in lieu of paying rent. The other one.