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Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 03:53pm
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Question

I am sure that a lot of you,like me,have been watching at least some of the NCAA Div I tournament. I have seen two intentional fouls called in two different games that I questioned when called and really questioned upon instant replay. KU vs Syracuse toward end of first half, lead called foul on defender who reached around and slapped at ball of offensive player who was dribbling on breakaway - obvious play on ball, not hard and official's position was behind defensive player where he could not see the entire play although he could see the defenders player go around for the reach - foul? Yes - intentional? Highly questionable.

Very same thing happened last night in USC versus Kentucky. In the paint offensive player, with ball in hands, standing back to basket, defensive player behind him with back to basket, official directly behind defensive player. Defensive player reaches around and slaps at ball. Again official's view of total play was blocked - definitely looked like a foul - but an intentional??

Did any of you see these plays? All of you continually stress position yourself to see the entire play before making the call. I realize sometimes we have to make the call when our positions are not giving us the best view of the play - but calling intentional fouls in these situations, when you can't see the whole play, and nothing extremely hard or rough? In the NCAA tournament where the creme de la creme are supposed to be? Am I missing something here or is it judgment, judgment, judgment?
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Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 04:01pm
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Lightbulb We talked it over

Quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Nicely

Did any of you see these plays? All of you continually stress position yourself to see the entire play before making the call. I realize sometimes we have to make the call when our positions are not giving us the best view of the play - but calling intentional fouls in these situations, when you can't see the whole play, and nothing extremely hard or rough? In the NCAA tournament where the creme de la creme are supposed to be? Am I missing something here or is it judgment, judgment, judgment?
Dennis,
We talked about that last night, my DII main guy and I.
We are of the thought that, since both plays were so similar and similarly questionable to each of us, there must have been a DI directive to that effect.
mick
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Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 04:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Nicely
I am sure that a lot of you,like me,have been watching at least some of the NCAA Div I tournament. I have seen two intentional fouls called in two different games that I questioned when called and really questioned upon instant replay. KU vs Syracuse toward end of first half, lead called foul on defender who reached around and slapped at ball of offensive player who was dribbling on breakaway - obvious play on ball, not hard and official's position was behind defensive player where he could not see the entire play although he could see the defenders player go around for the reach - foul? Yes - intentional? Highly questionable.
If the dribbler was going in for a breakaway, I have no problem with this call.

Quote:
Very same thing happened last night in USC versus Kentucky. In the paint offensive player, with ball in hands, standing back to basket, defensive player behind him with back to basket, official directly behind defensive player. Defensive player reaches around and slaps at ball. Again official's view of total play was blocked - definitely looked like a foul - but an intentional??
I disagree. That's not what happened, if we're talking about the same play. The defender swiped at the shooter. But when he missed him, he grabbed his arm and pulled as he was falling OOB. Both the C and the L signaled an intentional foul and rightfully so.

BTW, whether the play is extremely hard or rough typically has nothing to do with whether an intentional foul is called or not.
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Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 06:42pm
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I would have to agree with that assessment. I too was surprised when they call the intentional, but on the replay it looked as though the defender, after missing the ball, grabbed the offensive player by the arm and simply tried to pull him away from where he was trying to go.
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Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 10:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Nicely
I am sure that a lot of you,like me,have been watching at least some of the NCAA Div I tournament. I have seen two intentional fouls called in two different games that I questioned when called and really questioned upon instant replay. KU vs Syracuse toward end of first half, lead called foul on defender who reached around and slapped at ball of offensive player who was dribbling on breakaway - obvious play on ball, not hard and official's position was behind defensive player where he could not see the entire play although he could see the defenders player go around for the reach - foul? Yes - intentional? Highly questionable.
If the dribbler was going in for a breakaway, I have no problem with this call.

Quote:
Very same thing happened last night in USC versus Kentucky. In the paint offensive player, with ball in hands, standing back to basket, defensive player behind him with back to basket, official directly behind defensive player. Defensive player reaches around and slaps at ball. Again official's view of total play was blocked - definitely looked like a foul - but an intentional??
I disagree. That's not what happened, if we're talking about the same play. The defender swiped at the shooter. But when he missed him, he grabbed his arm and pulled as he was falling OOB. Both the C and the L signaled an intentional foul and rightfully so.

BTW, whether the play is extremely hard or rough typically has nothing to do with whether an intentional foul is called or not.
I agree with you on the Kentucky game... good call by the official.
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Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 10:29pm
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Georgetown - Maryland last night had one too. Fast break, one flat-footed defender between dribbler and basket, last defender while being beaten grabs dribbler on off ball side and wraps him up. Good call, but rarely made. I would agree that they must have put something out on watching for these things.
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Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 11:31pm
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The reality is that the officials in the NCAA tourney are probably calling intentional fouls in much the same way that the NF was looking for when they came out with this year's POE.
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Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 02:49am
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more IF: Kansas v. Illinois.

Seems to be contagious, although they are clearly merited, I'm sure there was a directive, or re-emphasizing of this point to discourage rough play.

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Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 11:30am
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Kansas vs Illinois:

I definitely agreed with the intentionality of both calls. The phrase from the Fed rule book which seems to apply here is, "...to take away an obvious advantage".

The call I felt unclear about was the play where Spink wrapped around and then he and the ball handler both fell toward out-of-bounds. What Bill Walton said about going for the ball seemed specious. Any of you have any insight on that one?
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Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 09:28pm
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Juulie,

Don't believe anything Bill Walton says. I know he's an icon in Portland but IMHO, there's not a bigger talking head behind the mic today, Vitale included.

I didn't see the play that you described. My guess is that the official felt the foul came before any attempt to play the ball since the defender was behind.

we all have to admit, the tourney officials have been consistent with this call throughout the weekend. I saw one called again in one of the Friday night games.

I like it.

TH
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Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 10:28pm
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From NCAA Officiating Bulletins

Possible reason for the plethora of intentionals:

Quote:
The NCAA Men's Basketball Committee is on record stating that officials who do not enforce the point of emphasis throughout the entire season will not be selected to officiate in the tournament.
See http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/basketball/ for more of this stuff.
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Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 02:19am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Juulie,

Don't believe anything Bill Walton says. I know he's an icon in Portland but IMHO, there's not a bigger talking head behind the mic today, Vitale included.
Tony, I agree, go look up the word specious. also see my post in the other NCAA thread.

Now why can't we get YOU on TV? That's the best solution I can think of.
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Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 04:47pm
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Re: From NCAA Officiating Bulletins

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Possible reason for the plethora of intentionals:

Quote:
The NCAA Men's Basketball Committee is on record stating that officials who do not enforce the point of emphasis throughout the entire season will not be selected to officiate in the tournament.
See http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/basketball/ for more of this stuff.
Maybe so, but I've seen several fouls this year that might have qualified as intentional go unpunished as such. Why do they suddenly pull out the "intentional" foul when the world is watching?!?! I know I haven't seen as many NCAA games this year as in years past, but this is a little strange watching all these (granted usually warranted) intentionals called.

Maybe others who park their fannies in front of the TV all evening to watch every college game possible have seen many intentionals called this year!?!? I doubt it. I bet we've seen more in this tournament in two weekends that we have ALL YEAR.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2001, 06:11am
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Indy, I agree 100%. We are seeing far more of these called in the tourney than in regular season, POE or no. These same guys that are calling them now didn't get there because they called them throughout the year.
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