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Mon Mar 19, 2001, 10:19pm
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No, I didn't see this anywhere, my brain just started wondering.
NCAA men's rules. A1 is driving through the lane with about 2 seconds left on the shot clock. He begins his continuous motion, and gets fouled with 1 on the shot clock. He shoots and (a) the clock is at zero, and the horn sounds before the shot is off (b) the clock is stopped at 1 second (or a fraction), yet there was more than 1 second between the foul and the shot (i.e. you KNOW it was more than 35 sec. since the last reset). Of course, the ball goes in. Is this like traveling where you can have foul, travel, bucket no good, two shots? Or does the clock reset at the time of the foul? Just something to get the ol' brains working until they implement behind the backboard officials  and more of us have a post-season.
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all." 
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 08:40am
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IMHO - If the shooter was fouled in the act of shooting and the horn sounds before the release of the shot you have no basket and the shooter gets two free throws.
If the shooter was fouled in the act of shooting and the clock stops on the foul - which, by the way, probably means the whistle and the clock operator both anticipated the foul - I think you allow the basket and award one free throw. Trying to convince the participants that your definite knowledge indicates a timing error (the horn should have sounded before the release) would be a real stretch of your credibility.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 08:43am
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I think it's just like a try at the end of the game -- the try must be in flight before the horn (either shot clock or game clock) sounds. If the try isn't in flight, the shot can't count -- but it was a foul in the act of shooting, so award two throws.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 09:44am
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(a) Shot clock try is defined as the ball having left the player's hand(s) before the sounding of the shot clock horn and then striking the ring or flange or entering the basket (NCAA 4-54). Since the ball was still in the player's hands this is not a shot clock try. Therefore, you penalize the foul. In this case, by rule you did not have a shot clock try. Two shots.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 01:38pm
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This doesn't make any sense to me...
Is this like traveling where you can have foul, travel, bucket no good, two shots? Or does the clock reset at the time of the foul?
If you have a foul, you should blow the whistle and the play stops there. How can you travel after a foul? From my understanding the clock wouldn't reset at the time of a foul (correct me if I am mistaken).
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 02:34pm
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Mark
Maybe I am missing something here (which is a real possiblity) but since you are talking about the shot clock running down I am assuming that the game clock has more time on it. So the horn you are referring to must be the shot clock horn (correct?). If that is the case the only question is where the foul occured before the shot clock horn sounded. In both A + B that seems to be the case. If the foul occured before the horn the shot will count because the clock should stop when the wistle is blown for the foul. It does not matter how long a players legal continuation takes. In theory a player could get fouled with less than a second to shot and then with his continuation and Micheal Jordan hang time take more than that to finish his shot. What you would do is count the hoop send the player to the line to shot 1 more and reset the clock to the amount of time that was actually left when the foul was called.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 02:37pm
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I meant to add this as well. Walter you are correct about the definition of a shot in NCAA rules. But as I mentioned above because the foul comes before the shot clock expiring the shot clock should not continue to run down. So in reality the shot would have been attempted (left the players hand and then went in) before the expiration of the shot clock.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 02:44pm
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Quote:
...reset the clock to the amount of time that was actually left when the foul was called. The shot clock resets on all fouls.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 02:50pm
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Dan_Ref
Good point. I got mixed up with it being the game clock expiring. You are correct the shot clock resets on all fouls (except double fouls I think) but none the less in this situation the shot clock would be reset.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 03:09pm
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Dewey1, I agree provided that the ball was out of his hands when the shot clock expires. If the foul occurs at 1 second on the shot clock but the horn rings before the ball is released, it is not a shot clock try under NCAA rules. NCAA clearly states the ball must be released. I'm a little slow today so maybe I'm just missing what you are saying. Again I'm talking about the shot clock try and not the game clock.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 03:21pm
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Walter
If the player is fouled with 1 second on the shot clock, by rule the shot clock cannot expire because the clock stops when the wistle blows. So if the horn did expire after it is simply a minor officals error for not stoping it when the wistle was blown. The basket will count and the player will get one shot. And as Dan_Ref pointed out you would reset the GAME clock to the time that was left when the foul was called. Hope that clears it up.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 03:31pm
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Wait a minute, Walter.
Quote:
Horns can blare, toot and sound, ... maybe more. But can they really ring? Aren't those bells? And shot clocks...; don't they buzz?  mick
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 03:46pm
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Re: Wait a minute, Walter.
Quote:
all that I'm left with is a constant ring. Huh? Whazat? Speak up!
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 03:56pm
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We may end up agreeing to disagree. If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer can't get the clock stopped before time expires you have to judge where the ball was at the time the shot clock expired. In this case, the foul occurs at 1 second on the shot clock. If the shot clock operator stops the clock prior to expiration great. However, if not, you still have to decide when the shot clock try ended. Take the foul out of the equation for a minute. If a player begins his habitual throwing motion at 1 second on the shot clock, in order for it to be a valid shot clock try the ball has to be released before the shot clock horn rings and then the ball must hit the rim flange or go in. This is the same principal. I understand what you are saying about the foul occurring at 1 second. In the post it clearly states that the time is at 0:00 and horn (and I'm guessing this is the shot clock horn) has rung and the ball is still in his hand. Therefore, yes he's in the act, but no he has not completed a shot clock try. Two shots. I intend to call my supervisor tonight and run it by him and I'll post later.
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Tue Mar 20, 2001, 07:27pm
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Re: This doesn't make any sense to me...
Quote:
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
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