Like we said: block. ;)

If you guys are doing this, you've got way, way too much time on your hands!

What else would I be doing at work...;)

The way to get this back into the game is to review plays in slow-motion and adjust judgement for future plays the look the same.

If the defender was moving forward, there will be a slight delay betwen the feet hitting the ground and the body coming to a stop.

The key positition is NOT the feet. Otherwise, a player could belly up, lean, extend hips, etc. Feet down is a factor in LGP but not the only factor. If the point of contact is moving towards the dribbler...block.

RTR said exactly what I was going to say.

I think what we can gain from the slow motion or stop-frame analysis is to train our brains to see what differentiates between a good play and a foul on a bang-bang play. I don't know if the specifics of what Cameron observed can work in real life, but I like his suggestion that there are things to watch other then the feet that might help us make better calls. It is also interesting that even with a frame-by-frame view of the play, people are seeing and interpreting it differently.

This is one of the most interesting and entertaining threads I have seen on this board! Thanks for starting it, MiG!

[Edited by Rick Durkee on Apr 13th, 2005 at 06:30 PM]

I thought it was a key, along with the principal of verticality. I agree with your point on leaning, extending hips, etc., because that is moving outside the defender's vertical plane. I guess what I'm saying is strictly using the phrase "torso moving towards the dribbler" is not an automatic block. Maybe this is a limited example, but what if the defender has got his feet to a spot on the floor first, (slightly ahead of his body), the offensive player tries to step over or past the feet, and the contact occurs when the defender's body gets to that area directly above his feet, still within that vertical plane. The defender's body did move into the dribbler, but isn't the dribbler responsible for the contact? I guess another extreme or limited example could be if a defender B1 is squatting down (maybe starting to get up after a hard screen), and the dribbler A1 tries to jump over the defender. If B1 stands up and contacts A1 within his vertical plane, isn't the foul on A1?

Anyway, that's why I like discussing the videos, because it's a way to actually view a situation and hear other opinions as to what should (or should not) be called.

To answer your question, no! They would both be PC and we would move on. If any of these plays are close it would be the second one not the first one.

I have PC on both of them. I can see how the official called block in the first one.

Also its bad how the other two officials start to move the other way down the court, this may happen to some of us as we just don't realize we're doing it. Somthing to think about when you're out on the court.


PS Cool on the vidoes, please post more.

Say what???? :confused:

I have PC on both and I agree with tomegun that the second one is closer to a block.

In the second the contact is not THROUGH the torso it is glancing contact. The defender timed his landing and loaded up to go down, it was 60% PC and 40% flop, IMO.

Had the dribbler not had that last dribble get away from him slightly, he'd have avoided the defender completely.

In the first lead guessed, it was far from a great job of watching the defense. On a bang-bang play like that if you know you are selling that sucker.

The offensive player was surprised by the defender, the contact was through the torso, the defender did not belly-up, there was no exaggerated body position, and both trail and center's instinct was that it was a charge.

Flop? What does a defender have to do for you to not think he was flopping? IMO that kid played great defense.

And where in the rules or case books can I find this "contact through the torso" thing?

I think that that B1 raising up wouldn't be a block...verticality...can always raise/jump vertically. This is different than the torso moving horizontally. The only permitted horizontal directions of movement are lateral and away.

In live action, I thought this was an easy PC foul. Only after seeing others early comments did I review it in slow motion and realize it wasn't so easy.

Are you saying that you took the time to open up the file, look at the play and didn't make a solid judgement one way or the other until you read something someone else posted?

These plays are great opportunities to work on breaking down film. Looking at different players over and over is a luxury we will not have on the court but the ability to see plays like this is a valuable learning tool to use.

I still stand by what I said earlier, the second video was closer to being a block than the first one. In the second video both players changed direction and the dribbler was trying to go around the defender instead of through him. At the same time defender was trying to draw contact. When looking at the offensive player in both plays I tried to imagine what would have happened if they (the offensive player) would have done something to avoid contact. In the first play that would have been to go straight up and down. In the second play that would have been to totally alter his course with the dribble. In the first play there probably wouldn't have been enough contact to call a foul, in the second play there would have been. Also, if you do the same thing with the defenders then the first play is still similar to what happened since it is already questionable that the defender was barely moving if at all. On the secon play if the defender would have stopped to avoid contact there probably wouldn't have been any contact. I hope that wasn't jumbled up. Sometimes it is easier to say and/or think something than it is to type it.

After seeing each one the first time I have to say that I would call the PC on both. I replayed and replayed them and didn't change my mind. The defense has a right to LGP on both. Of course, if I saw either called the opposite way, I would say that it was a good call.

The contact was not hard enough to floor the defender on that play, he sold the call which I consider a flop.

You have obviously never attended any camps or heard any big time officials talk about block/charge if you need to have contact through the torso explained to you.:rolleyes: