http://www.basketballscheidsrechter....ies/video1.avi

What do you guys think?

Block

Block.

Block, but only just.

jump?
 

I've got a charge; but only by using freeze frame. Defense has both feet touching floor and torso facing opponent before contact. No time or distance factor. Pretty hard to fault either call.

Re: jump?
 

I got a charge also. The offensive player ducks his shoulder and comes up into the defender. But I could see it being called a block also

Re: jump?
 

I looked at it in slo-mo and at full speed. You're right, both feet are on the floor, but he is in the middle of the motion of stepping forward. Even though his feet are on the floor, his torso and hips are way behind his feet and are still moving forward, toward his opponent, at the time of contact.

Block.

Defender arrived a hair late. Good job of reffing the defense.

Although - you could call charge on that play 1,000 times and never take any heat for it.

What about this one
 

What do you guys think about this one. From the reactions it looks like the call was an PC.

http://www.basketballscheidsrechter....ies/video2.avi

Look at the C in the first video. He starts walking in opposite direction. :eek: I agree with him I think it should be a PC but it's a bang bang play.

The second one was a PC. Good call.

Yep, second one is a clear charge.

In the first video the C and the T both start walking in the opposite direction.

Video 1: Block. Body still moving forward...very close though.

Video 2: Charge. Not even close.

Exactly why it's L's call - T and C do not have the best look at the WHOLE play - nor the ability to accurately ref the defender in question (the secondary defender).

What I saw:
Video 1- Charging foul, Lead referee calls foul but does not signal if foul is offensive or defensive. Center and Trail also unsure about the call and just hanging around waiting for lead to signal either way.
Video 2- again charging foul as defense had LGP and was moving laterally to take charge

Two plays that could probably be called either way.

In the first play the defender is NOT moving forward and moves into position with his hands up to play defense. The offensive player slightly dips his shoulder which is something I'm not so sure he would have done with a clear path to the basket. PLUS, the kid takes the contact in the torso. Close but with the benefit of replay I think it's a PC foul.
In the second play both the offensive and defensive players change direction. The defensive player is still moving slightly and has his hands in front of himself to brace for the contact. The offensive player is trying to go to the left and the movement with his right arm indicates to me that he really wanted to go around the defensive player instead of through him. After looking at the video a whistle is needed either way. This play is closer to me.

Using the videos we can sort of see what the the defensive players intended to do. While the feet don't have to be set, the feet along with the rest of the body can give away some things. I don't think I would have my hands straight up with a big man coming at me with a slightly lowered shoulder if my intent was to draw a charge. However, I always see players playing D with their hands straight up in the air. Plus, I think his feet were set. In the second play I think the player is trying to draw a charge. Was the dribbler attempting to take a path to avoid the contact and was the defender attempting to take a path to create contact. I think so.

THIS is what this forum should be about. I love this kind of training. It makes it so much easier to visualize situations on the court. If some one could put a collection of travelling (or not) scenes together, that would be fantastic. (e.g. Villanova in the NCAA tournament). It would be much easier to identify what is travelling and what isn't, at game speeds.

Brad, is there a way to have a video section on the forum? I could get a lot of clips.

This is great to review and discuss since on the court we only have 1 look. When the O player in Vid 1 dropped his shoulder and contacted, I'd call PC. In Vid 2, I'd say the D beat him to the spot and call PC. Both are bang/bang.

I also like the idea of discussions over video clips. Sometimes it's hard to imagine a specific play being described by someone else, or it's hard to put a play into words without bringing some of your own "bias" into it. Video just doesn't lie.

In these two clips, the first time I watched them at normal speed, my initial reaction was PC on both. I was a little unsure on the first the more I watched it, but the second one continued to seem obvious to me. That's the benefit of replay vs. real-time. I think it's great to be able to have a discussion like this to see what other people think is the correct call, so I can either adjust or validate my way of viewing a play. For example, if I view a play as a charge, but 9 out of 10 others call it a block, and give the reasons why, then I need to adjust what I'm looking at. It's hard to do that with just a written description of the play.

I know videos eat up a lot of space, and some people might not be able to access them due to dial-up speeds, etc., but I think viewing and discussing video plays could be a great help to this discussion forum. Either they could be included on this site, or members could make sure we know how to get to videos stored on other sites (like the above).

At first I thought it was a PC foul....until I played it back in very slow motion. The defender's torso was then clearly moving forward at the time of contact.

Dipping of the shoulder is only a clue...not a foul by itself. It only matters if (among other things) the defender has LGP.

I didn't think this one was close at all. Defender was clearly moveing obliquely away (to the side and backing up) from the dribbler. He had both feet down before the step to the right where contact occurred. Direct torso contact.

Boy, you guys and gals are good!
On the first video I had a charge initially and after reviewing.

On the second video, I had a block initially and only after review could I see the defender establish his feet right before contact.

Great videos.

Where did you find them?

2nd video....dribbler clearly was out of control, defender saw this and took advantage of it. He had LGP, I'd say, almost 3/4 second before contact. Easy call.

Are we watching the same play? Even though I can live with a PC on this one the dribbler was not out of control. He changed direction and the defender changed direction.

Camron, I don't see the defender's torso moving forward in the first video.

It is really splitting hairs on both of these plays but I think I would have had PC on both.

Video #2 - this is a PC foul. I see no evidence that the dribbler is out of control.

Cameron is seeing the same thing I'm seeing. You're right, it's close.

But try this: Expand the video to 2x or bigger. Play the video until just before the defender gets his feet on the ground. Pause it. Put a piece of paper or some other marker on the screen to mark the position of the back of the defender. Hold the marker there and step the video forward frame by frame. You'll see that with each frame, his torso is still moving forward. It's still moving forward when the contact occurs.

If you look closely at how the defender sets his feet, so far ahead of the rest of his body, simple physics/physiology says that either he has to be moving forward, or he'll fall on his can.

Wow, this is getting right down to the nitty-gritty. Is this how detailed the D1 guys game tapes get broken down? I'm not stating whether it's good or bad, I'm just impressed with BITS attention to detail.

IMO PC for both.

This is a great breakdown, but the part that worries me is how do we translate this to real-time? When we see the play for the first time (and only time), and react based on the info and angle that we have, we make the decision. We don't have the luxury of being able to pull out a piece of paper and watch the players do it again. ("Oh, wait, #23 can you do that move one more time, but do it slower for me?") I try to react on visual "clues", such as the position of the defender's feet, was the contact in the torso, etc.

As for the feet being ahead of the torso, and the torso of the defender moving forward at the time of contact - isn't the key the position of the feet? If the feet got to the spot on the floor, and contact was made in that "cone of verticality" (oh, oh..) above the feet, I don't think it matters if the body is moving forward and "catching up" to the feet.

Like we said: block. ;)

If you guys are doing this, you've got way, way too much time on your hands!

What else would I be doing at work...;)

The way to get this back into the game is to review plays in slow-motion and adjust judgement for future plays the look the same.

If the defender was moving forward, there will be a slight delay betwen the feet hitting the ground and the body coming to a stop.

The key positition is NOT the feet. Otherwise, a player could belly up, lean, extend hips, etc. Feet down is a factor in LGP but not the only factor. If the point of contact is moving towards the dribbler...block.

RTR said exactly what I was going to say.

I think what we can gain from the slow motion or stop-frame analysis is to train our brains to see what differentiates between a good play and a foul on a bang-bang play. I don't know if the specifics of what Cameron observed can work in real life, but I like his suggestion that there are things to watch other then the feet that might help us make better calls. It is also interesting that even with a frame-by-frame view of the play, people are seeing and interpreting it differently.

This is one of the most interesting and entertaining threads I have seen on this board! Thanks for starting it, MiG!

[Edited by Rick Durkee on Apr 13th, 2005 at 06:30 PM]

I thought it was a key, along with the principal of verticality. I agree with your point on leaning, extending hips, etc., because that is moving outside the defender's vertical plane. I guess what I'm saying is strictly using the phrase "torso moving towards the dribbler" is not an automatic block. Maybe this is a limited example, but what if the defender has got his feet to a spot on the floor first, (slightly ahead of his body), the offensive player tries to step over or past the feet, and the contact occurs when the defender's body gets to that area directly above his feet, still within that vertical plane. The defender's body did move into the dribbler, but isn't the dribbler responsible for the contact? I guess another extreme or limited example could be if a defender B1 is squatting down (maybe starting to get up after a hard screen), and the dribbler A1 tries to jump over the defender. If B1 stands up and contacts A1 within his vertical plane, isn't the foul on A1?

Anyway, that's why I like discussing the videos, because it's a way to actually view a situation and hear other opinions as to what should (or should not) be called.

To answer your question, no! They would both be PC and we would move on. If any of these plays are close it would be the second one not the first one.

I have PC on both of them. I can see how the official called block in the first one.

Also its bad how the other two officials start to move the other way down the court, this may happen to some of us as we just don't realize we're doing it. Somthing to think about when you're out on the court.


PS Cool on the vidoes, please post more.

Say what???? :confused:

I have PC on both and I agree with tomegun that the second one is closer to a block.

In the second the contact is not THROUGH the torso it is glancing contact. The defender timed his landing and loaded up to go down, it was 60% PC and 40% flop, IMO.

Had the dribbler not had that last dribble get away from him slightly, he'd have avoided the defender completely.

In the first lead guessed, it was far from a great job of watching the defense. On a bang-bang play like that if you know you are selling that sucker.

The offensive player was surprised by the defender, the contact was through the torso, the defender did not belly-up, there was no exaggerated body position, and both trail and center's instinct was that it was a charge.

Flop? What does a defender have to do for you to not think he was flopping? IMO that kid played great defense.

And where in the rules or case books can I find this "contact through the torso" thing?

I think that that B1 raising up wouldn't be a block...verticality...can always raise/jump vertically. This is different than the torso moving horizontally. The only permitted horizontal directions of movement are lateral and away.

In live action, I thought this was an easy PC foul. Only after seeing others early comments did I review it in slow motion and realize it wasn't so easy.

Are you saying that you took the time to open up the file, look at the play and didn't make a solid judgement one way or the other until you read something someone else posted?

These plays are great opportunities to work on breaking down film. Looking at different players over and over is a luxury we will not have on the court but the ability to see plays like this is a valuable learning tool to use.

I still stand by what I said earlier, the second video was closer to being a block than the first one. In the second video both players changed direction and the dribbler was trying to go around the defender instead of through him. At the same time defender was trying to draw contact. When looking at the offensive player in both plays I tried to imagine what would have happened if they (the offensive player) would have done something to avoid contact. In the first play that would have been to go straight up and down. In the second play that would have been to totally alter his course with the dribble. In the first play there probably wouldn't have been enough contact to call a foul, in the second play there would have been. Also, if you do the same thing with the defenders then the first play is still similar to what happened since it is already questionable that the defender was barely moving if at all. On the secon play if the defender would have stopped to avoid contact there probably wouldn't have been any contact. I hope that wasn't jumbled up. Sometimes it is easier to say and/or think something than it is to type it.

After seeing each one the first time I have to say that I would call the PC on both. I replayed and replayed them and didn't change my mind. The defense has a right to LGP on both. Of course, if I saw either called the opposite way, I would say that it was a good call.

The contact was not hard enough to floor the defender on that play, he sold the call which I consider a flop.

You have obviously never attended any camps or heard any big time officials talk about block/charge if you need to have contact through the torso explained to you.:rolleyes:

Obviously not. The only camp I attend is the yearly half hour cyo training session, but I missed it last year. Which is why I got dropped to 4th grade games.

But thanks for your obviously well thought out reply.

And btw, that aint a flop in the 4th grade cyo leagues I work. Maybe it is up in the 5th grade leagues you work.

That was my thought as well - it's one thing seeing it live in full speed, then watching again in slow-motion (or even other angles). My thought was PC as well, but if other people thought otherwise, what can I learn to watch for differently? Or is this so close that we should live with some of us calling PC while others call block, and we could both give legitimate reasons?

And, where can we find more of these videos? Perhaps a "Video of the Week" discussion?

LOL!!

First, what's your problem? You always come out with some smarta$$ comment and go on the attack.

You don't like me or my opinion, IGNORE my posts.

As for explaining it, it's simple. A1 moves into B1's torso but stops on contact and turns away, automatic PC foul or do we need more?

Displacement is caused by contact that goes through a player's location, i.e. A1's shoulder goes past the spot where the front of B1's torso was at the point of contact.

In the video in question A1 stops at first contact and turns to his left to avoid B1, thus it was glancing contact and not contact through the defender.

B1 had LGP and took contact on the torso, but IMO that contact did not cause the amount of displacement B1 showed on the video. B1 hit the spot and loaded up to fall back on contact. There was no contact through the defender and no pushoff with the right arm to cause that fall.

B1 met the guidelines to draw a PC foul but he still sold it, acted if you will, and IMO that is flopping. Without his "acting" I'm pretty sure we'd have seen a no-call on that play.

Thought I'd drop in to see if someone responded lol

Fantastic this discusion. It comes from a dutch ref site, don't know where the admin got it from, but we have a big discusion overthere too.

On the first I thought I saw a block after one view, and in slo mo, all charge posts made me doubt again. But I still think first contact is on the upperleg and not the torso.

I'm particularly intrested in ways to see this in the one time you get as a ref in the game.

Position is so d#mn important as always.

Btw thx for all your input

http://www.multiplex-sindelfingen.de/pix/popcorn.jpg

Uh, BZ, think maybe you brought it on yourself ?

It's not just this thread but here is his first reply.

"Flop? What does a defender have to do for you to not think he was flopping? IMO that kid played great defense.

And where in the rules or case books can I find this "contact through the torso" thing?"

This goes back to the closely guarded stuff last year. Do a little research and you'll see he ALWAYS takes a shot.

Well.....

That's a switch, now isn't it? :D

Say what?

Somehow you must have formed the wrong impression of me.......
http://d21c.com/AnnesPlace/Bears/PoohRef.gif
I'm just a cuddly, l'i pooh bear.

What did I miss?

http://www.acemart.com/graphics/0000...ts/GMP2266.jpg

I had read the thread without looking at the videos. After seeing their were different opinions, I decided to have a look. When I clicked on the video, it opened in Windows Media Player. I watched it in full speed...though both were clearly PC fouls.

I wanted to see it in slo-mo but Window Media Player apparently doesn't do that (as far as I could tell) and I didn't have time to figure out which viewer I had that could do it.

I came back to it later and viewed it with a different viewer that could do frame-by-frame advance and super slow-mo. It wasn't so obvious anymore. I changed my opinion to block and posted my thoughts.

I will stick with my original calls of PC on both. I don't have the advantage of stop action or slo-mo on the court. But like I said before, if a partner asked me, block is a great call.

Any possibilities of getting any more of these clips? They are a great teaching tool and a good topic of discussion. Are there any links available to get these clips from?