Wake/WVA

[Rich]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

He hit the defender right in the middle of his chest, D must have beat him to the spot.

I think the carry call coulda been passed on. That put Wake in a spot although they had their chances. On the O rebound when the kickout went into backcourt and Herber (pronounced HairBear) beat everyone to it and scored, that seemed to put it on ice.

Does W. Va only recruit unusual named kids?

I won't say that a shot to the center of the chest should be a PC foul -- if the driver has left his feet and THEN the defender establishes position, it should be called (correctly) a block. But this didn't happen on this drive, at least not to the degree that warrants rewarding the driving player.

The carry allowed the player with the ball to get around the player guarding him. It is the perfect example of the RIGHT time to call a carry. But the lead?

I saw another lead do something weird -- go up with a three that was not really in transition and then signal the "touchdown" after the ball went in. Three signals on a 3-pointer -- weird, weird, weird.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Rich, nobody said that everytime the O hits the D in the center of the chest it's a PC. I thought we were talking about this specific situation and that's what happened there.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I won't say that a shot to the center of the chest should be a PC foul -- if the driver has left his feet and THEN the defender establishes position, it should be called (correctly) a block. But this didn't happen on this drive, at least not to the degree that warrants rewarding the driving player.

The carry allowed the player with the ball to get around the player guarding him. It is the perfect example of the RIGHT time to call a carry. But the lead?

I saw another lead do something weird -- go up with a three that was not really in transition and then signal the "touchdown" after the ball went in. Three signals on a 3-pointer -- weird, weird, weird.

One thing I saw the lead do ina nother game, call goal tending.... just sayin ti cause of that other thread.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
[/B]

One thing I saw the lead do ina nother game, call goal tending.... just sayin ti cause of that other thread. [/B][/QUOTE]I saw that one yesterday too. It was on a fast break with everybody else still in the back court. In that case, GT is the lead's call to make.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

One thing I saw the lead do ina nother game, call goal tending.... just sayin ti cause of that other thread. [/B]

I saw that one yesterday too. It was on a fast break with everybody else still in the back court. In that case, GT is the lead's call to make. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, that's the one, I just boruhgt it up because of the other debate about lead calling it.

[Nevadaref]

We did not get the whole game out here in the West, but we were switched over to it near the end of regulation. Therefore, I have that and both OTs recorded on tape. I watched this game finish at a pizza joint with a buddy who is also a quality official. We cheered, laughed, and really enjoyed it. We noticed debated some calls, which turn out to be just the ones mentioned on this thread, so I spent an hour today watching those calls in slow motion. Here are my opinions:

1. The travel at the start of the first OT should have been called earlier. It is hard to see but when the player receives the original pass his right foot is on the floor. He then comes down on his left in the FT semicircle, this makes his RIGHT foot the pivot, not the left as the TV announcer stated. He now stepped with his right foot to the top of the key. Travel at this point. The center official did not make a call at this time. I don't know if that is because it truly is the Trails primary area (FT semicircle) or he gave the player the benefit of the doubt on his right foot and was using the left as the pivot. Now the Wake Forest player picked up his left foot, but did not put it back down, and passed/handed the ball to Chris Paul. A travel was whistled here by the center.
So, it depends upon which foot you considered the pivot. Right = a travel, Left = no violation.

2. First PC against Paul was textbook and easy. Pittsnogle was in great position in the center of the lane and Paul crashed into him.

3. Paul's 5th foul on the ensuing possession against Gansey was a great call. He came from behind in an attempt to block the shot and whacked him on the forearm.

4. Second PC against Wake was the tough one. I agree with what Tony wrote 100% on this one.

Originally posted by BktBallRef
The is the classic example of a PC foul that gets called a block. The defender was moving his feet, just like you hear coaches yell. He beat the dribbler to the spot. A1 was not airborne.

That's a PC.

5. We both noticed at the same time and got a good laugh out of the Lead both indicating and touchdown signalling that made three by Wake near the end. He had NO BUSINESS looking over there or making that call. The shot was taken from in front of the C near the top of the key. It was not a transition play as Wake was pushing the ball up following some FTs by WV. Seeing him standing under the basket with his arms up on the replay was rather amusing!

6. My feeling on the carry is based on game management. It seemed like all the tough calls (although right IMO) and bounces of the ball went against Wake in the 2OT periods. While the carry, which could be better described as a hesitation dribble, was there and did confer an advantage by helping the dribbler get past the defender, I felt it was a bit picky and could have been passed on. I have not observed that call being made throughout the tournament and can't say for this game due to regional coverage (unlike the great job of consistently calling the intentional fouls, which deserves a thread of its own). Wake probably felt like they were having it stuck to them after this call. So, I say that it was right by rule, but considering how that rule has been applied, I would have been more lenient at that point in the game.

I really thought that this crew did a solid job in a very difficult game. I believe that each team had three players foul out. There were some real bench warmers in there at the end, who got a chance to shine in a huge situation.
Overall, I have to give the crew an A- for the time that I saw because the Lead being on that three is just inexcusable to me.

[rockyroad]

That was one of the best college games I have seen in years...it will be on ESPN Classics in a few more years.

As for the carry/palming call - didn't like it at the time, didn't like it on replay. Hadn't been called all game, wrong guy called it if it's going to be called...just didn't like it.

And I have also noticed some "weird" things - officials signalling the three point shot from way out of their areas, the C official stepping way up high and watching the point guard/defender way above the top of the key (while T is right there)...guys making calls out of their areas - just some weird things...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad
That was one of the best college games I have seen in years...it will be on ESPN Classics in a few more years.

Yep, a great game.

As for the carry/palming call - didn't like it at the time, didn't like it on replay. Hadn't been called all game, wrong guy called it if it's going to be called...just didn't like it.

Me too, definitely not something that needed to be called at that point from where it was called. If it was a make-up, as Nevada thinks it might have been, it was heavy handed and wrong.

And I have also noticed some "weird" things - officials signalling the three point shot from way out of their areas, the C official stepping way up high and watching the point guard/defender way above the top of the key (while T is right there)...guys making calls out of their areas - just some weird things...

The only weird thing that sticks out for me is what Nevada brought up - the L signalling 3 then putting both arms up. Couldn't understand what that was about.

BTW, it's fun to chip away at these guys because we're used to constant criticism and self-evaluation, that's what we do to improve. But let's not lose sight of the fact that these are high pressure, high visibility games worked by the very best and they do a great job.

[johnSandlin]

Well, living in Big Ten country, I have to give props to one of these officals that worked this game because he lives in Big Ten country, but also he one of the officials I enjoy watching when the opportunity presents itself.

I agree with everyone who thought this crew did a great job in calling this game. I had the opportunity to watch the end of regulation, and both overtimes as well. There was not a call, I disagreed with.

The entire crew was on top of their game throughout the parts that I watched.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Yep, a great game.

Me too, definitely not something that needed to be called at that point from where it was called. If it was a make-up, as Nevada thinks it might have been, it was heavy handed and wrong.

The only weird thing that sticks out for me is what Nevada brought up - the L signalling 3 then putting both arms up. Couldn't understand what that was about.

BTW, it's fun to chip away at these guys because we're used to constant criticism and self-evaluation, that's what we do to improve. But let's not lose sight of the fact that these are high pressure, high visibility games worked by the very best and they do a great job.

Don't get me wrong, Dan - other than the palming call, I haven't really disagreed with any calls - just saw some things that struck me as odd...these guys are doing a great job!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Me too, definitely not something that needed to be called at that point from where it was called. If it was a make-up, as Nevada thinks it might have been, it was heavy handed and wrong.

Dan, I just wanted to clarify my thoughts on the carry. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I do NOT think that it was a make up call, rather it gave just the opposite impression.

That call went AGAINST Wake just as it seemed the majority of the calls did in the 2OT periods. While the other calls were all correct IMO, I felt that carry made it seem like everything was going against Wake.

So instead of being a make up call, which could have been an explanation if the carry had been called against West Virginia, it was another tough one that went against Wake.

Since it was borderline, and bearing in mind the way the other decisions had gone, I would have liked to have seen the carry passed on, but I cannot say that it was wrong because the kid did hesitate with the dribble.



[Edited by Nevadaref on Mar 22nd, 2005 at 12:08 AM]