good spin move or palming

[ysong]

thought I knew this long time ago, but...

What exactly does it mean by "the ball REST in dribbler's hand"?

for example, amid a dribble, the dribbler makes a spin move by planting a foot as a "pivot" and spining his body arround about 180 degree, during which time, the ball is pushed by the centrifugal force against his hand, then the dribbler push down the ball and continue dribbling. clearly, the ball was "resting" on his hand in that half circle.

Do you call this move "palming"?

Thanks.

[Snake~eyes]

I call a carry everytime a player holds the ball when they do that spin move.

[ysong]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
I call a carry everytime a player holds the ball when they do that spin move.

That is too bad, because that was what I was taught the "right" move to do the spin, along with "keep the ball at knee level", etc.

then how can a dribbler do a spin move without violation? It seems that the law of physics makes it imposible to keep changing the direction of the ball without applying force constantly to the ball. Therefore, it not legal at all for a dribbler to spin and keep dribbling, does this sound right?

thanks.

[refTN]

I believe this spin move is perfectly legal because the ball never came to rest on his palm. The force is what is keeping the ball there not the kid's palm.

If you called this illegal then you would have to call a kid who dribbles high and keeps his hand in contact with the ball all the way to its peak and back down till it leaves his hand.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by refTN
I believe this spin move is perfectly legal because the ball never came to rest on his palm. The force is what is keeping the ball there not the kid's palm.

If you called this illegal then you would have to call a kid who dribbles high and keeps his hand in contact with the ball all the way to its peak and back down till it leaves his hand.

That just simply means that the force of the spin caused the ball to come to rest in the player's hand. It's still palming.

[ysong]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
That just simply means that the force of the spin caused the ball to come to rest in the player's hand. It's still palming.

Then my confusion is what exactly "come to rest in his hand" means?

if it means no relative movement between the hand and the ball, then even a perfect downward dribble can be considered "no relative movement" if the dribbler keeps his hand on the top of the ball when pushing it.

on the other hand, if that phrase means "stop moving at a surface facing upward", then as long as dribbler's hand remains downward, there is no palming. one can argue that in that spin move the dribbler keeps his hand on the top of the ball (in the same time, on the side of the ball also), so the ball can not "come to rest" in his hand because the lack of vertical support.

Any insights to clarify my confusion? Thanks

[SmokeEater]

Wow getting a little too technical here. Comming to rest is determined when the hand supports the ball either by turning under the ball or grasping and carrying the ball by palming it.

It becomes a judgement call most times on these spin moves. As long as the dribbler is maintaining the hand above or mostly above the ball while performing the action, I make no call.

[ysong]

Originally posted by SmokeEater
Wow getting a little too technical here. Comming to rest is determined when the hand supports the ball either by turning under the ball or grasping and carrying the ball by palming it.

It becomes a judgement call most times on these spin moves. As long as the dribbler is maintaining the hand above or mostly above the ball while performing the action, I make no call.

Thanks, SmokeEater. Your explaination is quite a relief for me.

But, do you guys all agree with this, Snakeeye, BktReff or other gentlemen who helped me before? The reassurances from you guys are always what I've been seeking for.

Also I tried to find the defination of "palming" in the rulebooks of all levels but of no avail. Nevertheless, everybody uses it a lot. Could you guys help me on this too? because I found out that different person uses this word differently.

Thanks.

[SmokeEater]

I refer to palming in this case as being able to (with large enough hands) squeeze the ball from the top and support it vertically.

[ysong]

More insights please, especially if you think it is not a legal move.

Thanks.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ysong


Also I tried to find the defination of "palming" in the rulebooks of all levels but of no avail. Nevertheless, everybody uses it a lot. Could you guys help me on this too? because I found out that different person uses this word differently.

The word palming is used in the Officials Signals in the back of the NF Rulebook.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ysong

Then my confusion is what exactly "come to rest in his hand" means?

if it means no relative movement between the hand and the ball, then even a perfect downward dribble can be considered "no relative movement" if the dribbler keeps his hand on the top of the ball when pushing it.

on the other hand, if that phrase means "stop moving at a surface facing upward", then as long as dribbler's hand remains downward, there is no palming. one can argue that in that spin move the dribbler keeps his hand on the top of the ball (in the same time, on the side of the ball also), so the ball can not "come to rest" in his hand because the lack of vertical support.

Any insights to clarify my confusion? Thanks

You're overanalyzing this situaton, partner. Maybe this will help.

From the 2000-01 NFHS Points of Emphasis

Offensive players "palming" the ball continue to gain a tremendous advantage over defensive player(s). Emphasis is not only to be given to the dribbler's hand position, but also the activity of the ball while the dribble is occurring. "Palming" not only occurs while the palm is facing "skyward," but can also occur while the palm is facing the floor. The key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has "come to rest" (4-15-4 b). Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.

[ysong]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
You're overanalyzing this situaton, partner. Maybe this will help.

From the 2000-01 NFHS Points of Emphasis

Offensive players "palming" the ball continue to gain a tremendous advantage over defensive player(s). Emphasis is not only to be given to the dribbler's hand position, but also the activity of the ball while the dribble is occurring. "Palming" not only occurs while the palm is facing "skyward," but can also occur while the palm is facing the floor. The key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has "come to rest" (4-15-4 b). Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.

Thank BktBalRef for helping me again.

But this paragraph is what caused my confusion in the first place. Does the "palming" here only mean "holding the ball with fingers of a large hand"? (then that would be too easy )

Thanks.

[ChuckElias]

My contribution here was going to be the Point of Emphasis, but Tony already posted it. How can you palm the ball even with your hand on top or on the side of the ball? Think about Iverson's famous "crossover" move a few years ago. His hand was generally on the side of the ball, or at worst slightly below (which is usually ignored). But he controlled the ball all the way back and forth across his body between dribbles. He was "controlling" the ball to the floor instead of pushing or batting it to the floor.

Having said that, there's not too many HS players I've seen who can do Iverson's move. So in my HS games, I generally use smokeater's guidelines; but I try not to be surprised when somebody tries to pull it off.