Flopsey, Mopsey and Cottontail

[Back In The Saddle]

Was just reading the thread about the no-call on the flop at the end of the game and it got me thinking. How do you judge a flop? Some are really obvious because there is no contact. But others are harder to judge. One rule of thumb I've heard is that if the players head moves backward first, it's a flop. If there's contact, the torso will move backward first. Any other criteria that you use to judge a flop?

[JRutledge]

If a player really got hit in the chest, their feet are not going to be in the same place. In other words, if the defender falls like a tree, it is a flop. If the player's entire body moves from that spot, it is probably a PC foul. Or at the very least it is not a flop.

That is a rule of thumb I use. It does not mean it always applies to every situation.

Peace

[JRutledge]

It also does not help the player when they yell and scream when contact occurs either.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Was just reading the thread about the no-call on the flop at the end of the game and it got me thinking. How do you judge a flop? Some are really obvious because there is no contact. But others are harder to judge. One rule of thumb I've heard is that if the players head moves backward first, it's a flop. If there's contact, the torso will move backward first. Any other criteria that you use to judge a flop?

I've never got that scientific about it. If you are watching the defense, you can tell if the defender got displaced or if the defender caused all the movement by being an actor.

Z

[blindzebra]

Was the contact through the defender or was the seperation immediate?

A player yelling is also a dead give away, if you actually take severe contact in the chest the most that should be coming out of your mouth is an ooofff sound.

[bradfordwilkins]

Has anyone ever called a T for a flop? I just can't imagine bringing myself to do it unless it became continued throughout the game. As this thread suggests, hard to judge.

[Snake~eyes]

A good indication of the flop is when the player starts falling over before ball carrier has even made any contact. That and I can't stand when they grunt and make load noises.

[bradfordwilkins]

Another thing - The other day I had a player A1 who my partner (trail) says was falling back before B1 made contact. On my vantage, at some point B1 lowered the shoulder into the torso of A1 and A1 went down.

My partner and I talking at halftime, he said that A1 was flopping. I said I saw contact. He said that he was flopping first though. I didn't think that was relevant, since contact WAS eventually made and clearly shoulder to torso. Your thoughts?

[SMEngmann]

A good piece of advice I heard was to watch the knees of the defender. If the knees give, or buckle, it's usually a flop. I called a T for flopping this year, but it was on a shooter who landed, grunted and threw himself on the floor. It was a blowout game in favor of the flopper's team, they had been warned, so it was as much a game management call as any.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
Another thing - The other day I had a player A1 who my partner (trail) says was falling back before B1 made contact. On my vantage, at some point B1 lowered the shoulder into the torso of A1 and A1 went down.

My partner and I talking at halftime, he said that A1 was flopping. I said I saw contact. He said that he was flopping first though. I didn't think that was relevant, since contact WAS eventually made and clearly shoulder to torso. Your thoughts?

I HATE the thought of rewarding a defender on a flop. Unless the offensive player created some pretty severe, obvious contact, I'm going to call a block. If the defender complains, I'll tell him that he flopped so hard it was hard to tell if the opponent even touched him. He should get the message.

OBTW, I do believe this post puts me just one shy of the 1,000 mark. Not that I'm keeping track or anything

[bradfordwilkins]

"I HATE the thought of rewarding a defender on a flop. Unless the offensive player created some pretty severe, obvious contact, I'm going to call a block. If the defender complains, I'll tell him that he flopped so hard it was hard to tell if the opponent even touched him. He should get the message."

The thing is, if the defender is in legal guarding position and not moving their feet even (so its not even close, I know feet moving is irrelevant sometimes), I have a hard time calling a block. Perhaps a no call.

[Adam]

Remember, a player can be moving backwards when contact is made and still have LGP. If the defender starts falling before contact, and the ball handler still plows through him, I'm likely to call the pc and still warn the player and coach.
I saw several times this year when the player would have drawn the PC had he not flopped. Instead, he (it was a he every time I saw it this year) aided the offensive player by getting out of the way and there was no contact.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Remember, a player can be moving backwards when contact is made and still have LGP. If the defender starts falling before contact, and the ball handler still plows through him, I'm likely to call the pc and still warn the player and coach.
I saw several times this year when the player would have drawn the PC had he not flopped. Instead, he (it was a he every time I saw it this year) aided the offensive player by getting out of the way and there was no contact.

Well said!

[Nu1]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Remember, a player can be moving backwards when contact is made and still have LGP. If the defender starts falling before contact, and the ball handler still plows through him, I'm likely to call the pc and still warn the player and coach.
I saw several times this year when the player would have drawn the PC had he not flopped. Instead, he (it was a he every time I saw it this year) aided the offensive player by getting out of the way and there was no contact.

I think the responses to the original post mention good indicators, but I wouldn't be comfortable saying certain things are a dead give away.

You could have a player keep his/her feet completely still/planted and draw a PC...you could also have a player yell or scream to draw attention, but still have a PC.

[justacoach]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
A good indication of the flop is when the player starts falling over before ball carrier has even made any contact. That and I can't stand when they grunt and make load noises.

Rule 4
SECTION 23 GUARDING

ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:

a. The guard is not required to have either or both feet on the floor or continue facing the opponent.
b. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
c. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
d. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.