First men's league game

[OverAndBack]

Got roped into doing men's league at the facility where I've been doing kids' travel ball. First time I've done a game where the participants could actually shave.

Thought it would be horrible - just a bad case of testosterone poisoning, but it actually wasn't bad at all. Pretty well played game, close game, hard-fought but not dirty.

A few complaints from the players, but sometimes I didn't mind it because I knew I got the call right, and sometimes I didn't mind it because I knew I got the call wrong.

Best part: No coaches, and no parents.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Don't hold your breath.

They were just feeling you out and will start expanding their peramiters as the weeks go by. Maybe not but my guess is that in a few weeks you'll be telling us about all the T's and why you quit. I just did exactly that and I'm ruined to men's leagues forever.

[zebracz]

Men's leagues ARE THE BEST PLACES TO LEARN. Work 'em and work em hard; you can gain valuable game management experience from doing these types games. And here's where you'll get some of the real wierd, odd happenings too. I love doing men's leagues (when I'm in the mood to). Yes I'd be lying if I didn't say that they suck sometimes, but, they're good teaching tools. LoL

[OverAndBack]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
Don't hold your breath.

They were just feeling you out and will start expanding their peramiters as the weeks go by. Maybe not but my guess is that in a few weeks you'll be telling us about all the T's and why you quit. I just did exactly that and I'm ruined to men's leagues forever.

Maybe. We'll see. This league has a rule that any T is an automatic two points and the ball and a $25 fine for the team payable before their next game. My partner did call one last night for foul language (another rule).

I was expecting the worst, and I'll continue to be on guard for the worst. But the first experience was pretty positive.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebracz
Men's leagues ARE THE BEST PLACES TO LEARN. Work 'em and work em hard; you can gain valuable game management experience from doing these types games. And here's where you'll get some of the real wierd, odd happenings too. I love doing men's leagues (when I'm in the mood to). Yes I'd be lying if I didn't say that they suck sometimes, but, they're good teaching tools. LoL

The best place to learn?

How do you learn from teams not running an offense? How do you learn when you have no coach? How do you learn with no table personnel that have to keep track of proper records? How do you learn when partners do not want to use the proper mechanics? How do you learn when your partners might not even work any HS or college ball?

If that is the best place to learn, I sure know a lot of officials that do not do them and are very successful.

Peace

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by zebracz
...can gain valuable game management experience from doing these types games.

Agreed! IF you can take care of the game with these pi$$ing & moaning prima-donnas, you can take care of about anything! True, you may not learn mechanics, rotations, switches, and all that stuff, but you can learn how to manage a game!

[gordon30307]

You work high school and college to Ref. You work mens league games for MONEY. You get absolutely nothing out if it. IMHO. Doing these games are not going to make you better. In fact if you do enough you'll pick up bad habits.

[OverAndBack]

There may be something to that. But I would think that game management and dealing with players' personalities would be valuable experience to get. Not the only experience you need, obviously, but I try to take something from every game I do and try to learn something.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The best place to learn?

How do you learn from teams not running an offense? How do you learn when you have no coach? How do you learn with no table personnel that have to keep track of proper records? How do you learn when partners do not want to use the proper mechanics? How do you learn when your partners might not even work any HS or college ball?

If that is the best place to learn, I sure know a lot of officials that do not do them and are very successful.

Peace

Not running an offense makes you stay sharp and ready for the unexpected.

You have 10 coaches on the floor acting as bad as the worst coach you will ever run into in a high school game.

There are table personnel in men's league and they screw up all the time, 2-3 and 2-10 ring a bell?

You have a point about mechanics, but that does not keep you from doing things by the book.

Partner not working HS or college, you learn what NOT TO DO.

You need to work if you don't have experience and rec leagues will give you countless opportunities to apply the rules you rarely see in high school games.

If you can handle rec leagues you can deal with ANY coach or player in a high school game.

Remember some officials out there are not in a position to say a level of basketball is beneath them.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by OverAndBack
Got roped into doing men's league at the facility where I've been doing kids' travel ball.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Jerkball.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by blindzebra


Not running an offense makes you stay sharp and ready for the unexpected.

Yes I think running and offense is important to the development of an official. One of our jobs is to watch off-ball coverage and you do not get that with guys just standing around. Sometimes they do run an offense, but it is what I call the 5 star offense. 4 guys stand around the 3 point line, while one guy calls himself posting up in the middle. Usually no one moves, screens or cuts. Now is that the case all the time and everywhere, of course not. But if I work a JH game, I am going to see an honest attempt at running some kind of basic offense and defensive sets.

Originally posted by blindzebra
You have 10 coaches on the floor acting as bad as the worst coach you will ever run into in a high school game.

How do you learn from that? Coaches are not on the floor. Those are players. I would not want players talking to me like that at any JH, HS or college level. Why would I want a player in any situation to talk to me or question everything I do? There job is to play.

Originally posted by blindzebra
There are table personnel in men's league and they screw up all the time, 2-3 and 2-10 ring a bell?

You have a point about mechanics, but that does not keep you from doing things by the book.

How are you going to have correctable errors when many leagues do not even use the same scorekeeping rules? I know of leagues that do not even keep the same foul count rules as "real basketball" levels do. Of course some do, but it is a mixed bag.

Originally posted by blindzebra
Partner not working HS or college, you learn what NOT TO DO.

If you are a young official, you do not know what to do. That takes time and experience to know what to do most of the time. Not sure I agree with that. Then when you are younger you are not going to challenge those that are running the league or working with you because you do not know any better.

Originally posted by blindzebra
You need to work if you don't have experience and rec leagues will give you countless opportunities to apply the rules you rarely see in high school games.

Then work JH games. Work JV games. Work sophomore games. I worked 7 days a week and had to turn down games. I was in college and could do that when I started officiating. But I worked every game I could get my hands on that was not a Men's league.

Originally posted by blindzebra
If you can handle rec leagues you can deal with ANY coach or player in a high school game.

That is crap (at least here it is). I can say many things that will get my point across without having to raise my voice. In a men's league if the league does not back the officials (which many times they do not) or the player has enough money they can say pretty much what they like. Of course you can throw them out of the game, that does not mean all the procedures are in place to protect the officials or make sure that action will be taken. I do not have those problems at the other levels.

Originally posted by blindzebra
Remember some officials out there are not in a position to say a level of basketball is beneath them.

Well if you cannot choose what level you want to work or what league you want to work, then that is a sad commentary for officiating. Maybe that is the reason there are not that many officials across the country. But in this area Men's leagues are not apart of our associations. Of course there are members that assign those leagues, but it has nothing to do with the development of officials for HS and college. Men's leagues and even most JH leagues are optional for officials to work. They do not help you get evaluated for HS games and they do not hurt you. They are just there to make money.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Yes I think running and offense is important to the development of an official. One of our jobs is to watch off-ball coverage and you do not get that with guys just standing around. Sometimes they do run an offense, but it is what I call the 5 star offense. 4 guys stand around the 3 point line, while one guy calls himself posting up in the middle. Usually no one moves, screens or cuts. Now is that the case all the time and everywhere, of course not. But if I work a JH game, I am going to see an honest attempt at running some kind of basic offense and defensive sets.

How do you learn from that? Coaches are not on the floor. Those are players. I would not want players talking to me like that at any JH, HS or college level. Why would I want a player in any situation to talk to me or question everything I do? There job is to play.

How are you going to have correctable errors when many leagues do not even use the same scorekeeping rules? I know of leagues that do not even keep the same foul count rules as "real basketball" levels do. Of course some do, but it is a mixed bag.

If you are a young official, you do not know what to do. That takes time and experience to know what to do most of the time. Not sure I agree with that. Then when you are younger you are not going to challenge those that are running the league or working with you because you do not know any better.

Then work JH games. Work JV games. Work sophomore games. I worked 7 days a week and had to turn down games. I was in college and could do that when I started officiating. But I worked every game I could get my hands on that was not a Men's league.

That is crap (at least here it is). I can say many things that will get my point across without having to raise my voice. In a men's league if the league does not back the officials (which many times they do not) or the player has enough money they can say pretty much what they like. Of course you can throw them out of the game, that does not mean all the procedures are in place to protect the officials or make sure that action will be taken. I do not have those problems at the other levels.

Well if you cannot choose what level you want to work or what league you want to work, then that is a sad commentary for officiating. Maybe that is the reason there are not that many officials across the country. But in this area Men's leagues are not apart of our associations. Of course there are members that assign those leagues, but it has nothing to do with the development of officials for HS and college. Men's leagues and even most JH leagues are optional for officials to work. They do not help you get evaluated for HS games and they do not hurt you. They are just there to make money.

Peace

As usual you make a blanket statement and spin it when it is shot full of holes.

There are many areas of the country where basketball is a year round thing. One way to improve is to work as many games as you can, and that cannot always be JH or HS ball, or even youth leagues.

The veteran officials that are too good for adult leagues, will work those youth games. Assignors for those games are going to give them to the vet over a rookie.

I enjoy officiating basketball, I don't care what level or type of ball that may be. Would I prefer to work a high school or college game over a men's league? You bet your a$$, but they are not playing year round.

And to take an attitude that nothing can be gained from working a men's league is BS.

You can have crappy partners, no mechanics, a funky table, and no organization working any level other than HS varsity and college.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by blindzebra


As usual you make a blanket statement and spin it when it is shot full of holes.

BZ,

I think once again, you and others keep forgetting what this place is. This place is for discussion and opinions to be shared. It is not so that we can all agree. If you do not like the things I have said, you do not have to apply them to your officiating. It is very clear that places across the country are different and I know that. But you do not live here (which O&B does). Things are different in other parts of our state and in different organizations. I have every right to give an opinion on this and any other issue.

Originally posted by blindzebra
There are many areas of the country where basketball is a year round thing. One way to improve is to work as many games as you can, and that cannot always be JH or HS ball, or even youth leagues.

Well they play basketball here 12 months out of the year. AAU games will start before the playoffs are totally completed. And during a good part of the spring and summer there are HS leagues or shootouts that go on all the time. At least here if you want to you can completely avoid any Men's league.

Originally posted by blindzebra
The veteran officials that are too good for adult leagues, will work those youth games. Assignors for those games are going to give them to the vet over a rookie.

I do not work for any assignor that gives me HS or college games that assigns a Men's league. Or at the very least, they do not offer those games to officials that work a lot of HS or college games. Many times the league gets their own officials. Or some officials that has to get off the game, asks a fellow official to cover them.

Originally posted by blindzebra
I enjoy officiating basketball, I don't care what level or type of ball that may be. Would I prefer to work a high school or college game over a men's league? You bet your a$$, but they are not playing year round.

Just like the guys on ESPN 1000 say, "WE ARE HAPPY FOR YA!!"

They play pretty much year round here.

Originally posted by blindzebra
And to take an attitude that nothing can be gained from working a men's league is BS.

You have a right to your opinion. I definitely have a right to my own opinion. If you do not like it, that is your problem. I still say that it is a waste of time and energy. All the officials I know that are successful are not going out of their way to work those games. Of course some do and that is their option to do so. But I do not need to work with a bunch of has-beens or "never weres" to prove I can work a game. We do not have to agree on this BZ.

Originally posted by blindzebra
You can have crappy partners, no mechanics, a funky table, and no organization working any level other than HS varsity and college.

I sure can. I can go through an entire season and not find a single official that is totally incompetent. I might work with some officials that are younger and do not know any better, but at least those guys are willing to learn or they know they will not work.

Peace

[ChrisSportsFan]

Hey, if it works out good for you to work men's league games, good for you. It wasn't always smooth sailing in you league and that's why they had to come up with those hybrid rules for a T. I just know I won't be working any of those games, unless, well, if they give me the $25 extra for the T's. In that case, both teams start out with 2 each. :-)

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
well, if they give me the $25 extra for the T's. :-)

Hey, I think you're on to something here!