Bonus situation.

[Mark Dexter]

This happened at a game where I was assisting one of the teams last night (couldn't say much to the table, because the coach would have killed me) late in the 4th of a close game, where the losing team started fouling:

B is pressing on the throw-in after they score. A1 throws to A2, who is immediately bear-hug fouled by B1 and B2 (of course, no multiple call - just common on B2). After the foul, A2 stays completely still and B2 gives him a shove - technical for B2.

At the beginning, the board showed 5 team fouls. At the end, 7. The grab was #6, and the T was #7. For some reason, however, A2 shot a 1-and-1 followed by the 2 for the T (thankfully none were made). When I asked the scorer later, he said something about the fact that a T also counts as a personal foul.

I know that I'm right on this (no ego here, right ). Only problem, I can't find a casebook play. Does anyone know where one might be hiding?

Thanks.

[PAULK1]

I could not find a case book play for you situation
just the rule 8-7: Penalties for fouls are administered
in the order in which the fouls occurred. The team was not entitled to a one and one.

I think in the bigger picture though a intentional foul
in this situation should have been called for the bear hug
and may have defused the situation and B might not have
been in such a hurry to go with the push after the play.

[walter]

Paulk1 got it right. Fouls and subsequent penalties are administered in the order in which they occurred. In this case, common foul (#6) followed by technical foul (#7). No 1-and-1, shoot the two free throws for the "T" and ball to A at division line.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by PAULK1
I think in the bigger picture though a intentional foul
in this situation should have been called for the bear hug
and may have defused the situation and B might not have
been in such a hurry to go with the push after the play.

In all of the games I have been to this season, I don't think I have seen a single intentional foul called in this area.

[PAULK1]

Probably why we will have the same POE next year.

[Tim Roden]

Walter is correct. Just the technicals should have been shot. As far as it being an intentional foul. I have been calling it that way but a lot of the old timers have not. The POE is there but they don't read it and when you tell them about it they won't listen. Of course they get the playoff games and we don't. Go figure.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
Walter is correct. Just the technicals should have been shot. As far as it being an intentional foul. I have been calling it that way but a lot of the old timers have not. The POE is there but they don't read it and when you tell them about it they won't listen. Of course they get the playoff games and we don't. Go figure.

It doesn't get called properly because the culture hasn't been changed. Until players, coaches, ofiicials, and supervisors change, it's not going to be called correctly.

I started out this season and called it correctly 4 times in the first month. I got into all kinds of hot water! The same thing happened with palming.

You can put it in the POE every year, but until you change the culture, it isn't going to matter!

[Jim Dixon]

Originally posted by PAULK1
Probably why we will have the same POE next year.

Good point. IMHO, when POE's are published, we have an ethical responsibility to read and abide with the intent of it.

For the older / experienced officials, the mindset ajustment may be considerable, but I suggest to you that the principle is still, nevertheless, the same. Enforce the rules, and enforce them based on the intent, ESPECIALLY according to the points of emphasis each year.

When we don't do this, it is a disservice to the players and the sport. It also is indicative of the need for an attitude adjustment -- that, or resignation.

[Tim Roden]

This is why when the NCAA published there POE on rough play this year, they got all the top officials together along witht he supervisors and got them to agree to abide by it. I think, each state needs to do the same thing.

Speaking of which. I did get to visit the beautiful state of Washington before the earthquake. In watching a game up there, the evaluators have such a strong hand that you have to abide by whatever POE they decide to bring down.

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

In all of the games I have been to this season, I don't think I have seen a single intentional foul called in this area.

If the defensive player makes any and I mean any play on the ball, it's a common foul. Even if during the attempt the ball handler turns away and contact is made on the back or hip, etc. You can always argue to whomever that the defense was going for the ball. If not it's a technical. I had no problems this season using this philosophy.

[Bart Tyson]

Saw a game last night on ESPN. Iowa player bear hugs opp. and the officials called the o cross bones. good call. I would like to see the rule changed. Live ball, player with ball, let the def. just grab him. simular to the nba. Of course i would also like to see a dotted line on the floor under the basket, simular to the nba. i think this would clean up some Block/Charge under the basket.