Officiating in the PAC

[BTTB]

I tried to ask some questions on this board last year.Â*Â* I was sincere about the questions, but the way I asked them must have revealed some of my opinions about officiating quality in the PAC 10.Â* In retrospect I should have been more careful with my words, because I attracted some unfocused hostility from a couple of posters here,Â* and my initial questions were never addressed at all.Â* In any case,Â* there has been no change in the policy or product in the PAC this year, and my attitudes haven't changed either.Â* I would like to re-pose my initial questions again though, and I'll be more careful with my choice of words.Â*

My first question has to do with the nature of the interaction between a major conference and a contract basketball official with regard to performance evaluation .Â* Is there a formal review that occurs? And does that take the form that one would think between a supplier and client?Â* And who are the constituencies that a conference supervisor of officials would take into account in that process?Â* Are the conference coaches surveyed about referee quality like students are asked to evaluate their Professors?Â* Or is that something that is taken up with the AD's, or is anyone involved outside of the league at all?Â*Â* As an aside, I can say pretty authoritatively that the fans are not a major element in the PAC 10 procedureÂ* :-)Â*Â* And if there is a formal evaluation,Â* with communicated expectations, does the style of play and how it differs from another conferences come up?Â* We would all agree that officiating styles differ from region to region, and that those styles did not arise randomly.Â* How does a league communicate the subtleties of it's desired style of play and administer its expectations since the rule book does not differ based on the conference in question?

BTTB

[blindzebra]

This one won't go over any better.

Why not contact the Pac 10 and put your question toward them?

[Jimgolf]

Your communication style (large, blue font, animated graphic) suggests that this is some form of entertainment to you, rather than any real effort to be enlightened.

If I am wrong, then as blindzebra suggests, you might want to start by sending a letter to the PAC 10 supervisor of referees and asking him these questions.

I would suggest, however, that rather than investing so much effort, that you just realize that refs will make calls that you don't agree with, and accept that as part of the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Your team having another tough year, BTTB?

[BTTB]

Well I guess that I just can't do it.Â* I really did try to engage some of you in a sincere conversation, even though we disagree, but I'm now convinced it wasn't a reasonable endeavor in the first place.Â* My bad.Â* And I think I must really bug some of you, based on the responses here, which while cordial, are low in their assistance quotients.Â* I also detect a dash of sarcasm by your inference that I wouldn't ask these same questions of Mr. Camenelli.Â* I assure you I have, and I was very pleasant to him too.

As for trying to understand why basketball officials act the way they do, my current theory is that there are certian personality traits that are common to those people that are attracted to the work.Â*Â* For the record, I don't think referees deserve some of the treatment they seem to get, although I can relate to the feeling that can come over an otherwise delightful person when he's been repeatedly provoked.Â* On the other hand, my experience is that you guys don't waste a lot of energy meeting people half way either.Â* Too bad, you had a perfect opportunity to prove me wrong.Â*

The fact is that referees miss a lot of calls.Â* The PAC referees specialize in seeing stuff that would have happened if they hadn't called it first. But they'reÂ* dependably inconsistent too, not just from one game and crew to the next, but from one half of play to the next.Â* The reason I know that is because I've observed them hundreds of times, up close.Â* It's not a very controversial opinion in our conference.Â* Listen, I wish it weren't true too.Â* Believe me.Â* There's nothing so annoying as a persistent truth...Â*

So, I bid you guys farewell, and could someone try to have the spam I get from this place turned off after i leave?Â* It would be a nice gesture.Â* And my team is doing great this year, thanks for asking.Â* It would be more fun tthough if ....um....the officiating wasn't still so bad.Â*

BTTB

[Lotto]

I must respectfully disagree with your whole approach. Your question comes down to "Why are these particular referees so bad?" Although you may believe this is an attempt at "sincere conversation," it's not, because the premise you're starting with is one that no official will agree with.

Reread the third paragraph of your second post. Is that really an attempt to engage is a serious dialogue with professionals about their profession?

[zebraman]

I've seen several Pac-10 games this year both in person and on TV and the officiating has been excellent. Have they missed a call now and then? Sure, who hasn't? However, they are excellent officials. Get a life.

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

Same time, next year- fanboy.

Buh-bye.

PS- keep looking over your shoulder. We officials know where you live. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Bwahahahahaha..........

Lah me. Sorry folks, but it's a complete waste of time trying to explain or reason with clowns like this. Ain't nuthin' gonna change his mind.

[Jay R]

Living on the east coast, I do not see alot of PAC-10 games on TV. I probably watch 50-60 NCAA games a year. The officiating is strong. Do they miss calls? Of course they do. You can not be perfect in this job. But keep this in mind, even if you could be pefrect, you'd still get criticized because of the nature of the game. You have a block-charge call to make, you get the call right and the tape verifies this. Is everyone in the gym going to be happy?

I have seen many PAC-10 officials over the years. Dick Cartmell and Dave Libbey are consistently given Regional Finals and Final Four assignments. Someone thinks they are doing a consistent job.

The supervisor of officials in a conference would have a performance evaluation that is quite thorough. I am pretty sure that coaches and AD's comments would be taken in to consideration. I am also certain that the coaches opinions would not be the #1 criteria to determine an official's worhtiness. Last year, a HS coach called my assignor and told him he did not want me to officiate anymore of his games (mostly because of a technical foul I called). My assignor has given me his team 4 times this year. The assignor's question to the coach were: Did he warn you about your behaviour before the T? Was he unprofessional at any time? My assignor had confidence that I could do the job. The coach has not complained since, not formally
anyway.

I am not sure why you are so preoccupied with the PAC-10 officiating. Here is a suggestion. Join your local referees association and start officiating. Come back to this forum after a while. You will not be bringing up the same points.

Jay

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jay R
Living on the east coast, I do not see alot of PAC-10 games on TV. I probably watch 50-60 NCAA games a year. The officiating is strong. Do they miss calls? Of course they do. You can not be perfect in this job. But keep this in mind, even if you could be pefrect, you'd still get criticized because of the nature of the game. You have a block-charge call to make, you get the call right and the tape verifies this. Is everyone in the gym going to be happy?

I have seen many PAC-10 officials over the years. Dick Cartmell and Dave Libbey are consistently given Regional Finals and Final Four assignments. Someone thinks they are doing a consistent job.

The supervisor of officials in a conference would have a performance evaluation that is quite thorough. I am pretty sure that coaches and AD's comments would be taken in to consideration. I am also certain that the coaches opinions would not be the #1 criteria to determine an official's worhtiness. Last year, a HS coach called my assignor and told him he did not want me to officiate anymore of his games (mostly because of a technical foul I called). My assignor has given me his team 4 times this year. The assignor's question to the coach were: Did he warn you about your behaviour before the T? Was he unprofessional at any time? My assignor had confidence that I could do the job. The coach has not complained since, not formally
anyway.

I am not sure why you are so preoccupied with the PAC-10 officiating. Here is a suggestion. Join your local referees association and start officiating. Come back to this forum after a while. You will not be bringing up the same points.

Jay

Frankly, this thread just reminds me that March is coming and the fanboys will be coming out in full force to whine about the officiating. By then the only officiating I'll be doing will be in my mind.

[Mark Padgett]

BTTB = Brains Took The Bus

[SMEngmann]

Funny how the fanboy wonders why officials "don't meet anyone halfway" when we've got fans who've never done our job once in their lives who think they're qualified to evaluate us. Then HE gets mad when he doesn't get a response.

[Gator]

I am not a ref and am an avid reader of this forum to learn more about the rules of the game and how they are administered.

From what I know, your premise makes no sense. In our conference, (a major D1 conference) I see officials all of the time who I have seen on TV working the Big East, the SEC, etc. etc. I would bet if you check it out, many of the refs used in the PAC 10 also work multiple other conferences.

Officials are the most scrutinized profession I know about - tapes of games are reviewed, individuals are rated, they are coached, etc. I wonder how you would do if your work day were videoed and critiqued. Our conference has a person who oversees officials and includes review tapes of games to rate performance. Coaches can submit tape for review if they think something is wrong but may not publicly criticize officiating - the conference will discipline them if they do. I have deduced that this is because it is the conference policy to not deal with individual calls - good or bad. It would thus be unfair for a coach to criticize a person who is not allowed to respond. Each year they determine which refs (if any) they wonÂ’t schedule the next year. All refs are given feedback of deficiencies which have been observed. Refs who do not improve are part of the group not invited back. Nobody claims refs donÂ’t miss stuff or, MUCH less frequently, get stuff wrong. At a game I was at recently, the refs missed a clear push after the ball was dead - the push was to the back of the person who had just fouled the pusher. Fact: replaying the gamed I had TVOed, the refs werenÂ’t looking in the direction where the push happened - they were reporting the foul to the table and beginning to set up the free throw. It was a dead ball after all! Refs can not call what they donÂ’t see. BTW - the team who fouled took that push as a challenge and went on a tear - stealing and scoring a couple of times.

The more I learn about the “real” rules (ie, many fans seem to invent their own rules about what is a foul) the more I realize just how good officiating is in the conference I follow. I hope this doesn’t insult you, but I would suggest that part of the problem may be your lack of knowledge. Do you scream about over-the-back “calls” not being made? How about reach in “fouls” the refs miss. If you could find a HS or other official to watch a tape with you and explain what you are seeing you might find that it is not what you THOUGHT you saw.

Frankly, instead of some of the amateurish boring and otherwise waste of time half shows which are put on, I wish there was a mini clinic on the rules of the game and officiating. I think informed fans are better fans and there are precious few ways a fan can get informed about this issue.

Sorry officials, this is YOUR forum and I hope you will forgive this intrusion but, I just could NOT resist. IÂ’ll go back to reading and learning now.

[JRutledge]

You can find fans in all conferences and claim that the officials are not very good. I hear the same thing every year I attend the Big Ten Tournament. You would think no team has ever gone to a Final Four because of the refs. Well at least a few years back the Big Ten had the most Final Four appearances than any other conference in the NCAA. That might have changed, but even lately it was not unusual to see two Big Ten teams in the Final Four. Let the fans tell it, the style of play the officials allow was the hindrance of Big Ten dominance.

The fact is that officials in all the major conferences work several conferences. The top officials can be seen in many conferences in the very same week. There is no such thing as a "Pac 10 Referee." An official at that level is working many D1 conferences. I was told recently that the Big Ten got rid of officials that were only working D1 games (one or two games at least) in the Big Ten. Even if you work a couple of games in the big conference, you probably need to have some games in the lesser or mid-major conferences. It is clear that the person that started this thread has very little understanding of how this thing works.

Peace

[rainmaker]

I am personal friends with a ref on the men's side in the Pac-10. He is unquestionably one of the best refs in the country, and will probably be a nationally recognized leader in officiating as he moves up the ranks. If he's who they choose, I would expect they're a pretty good organization, and that the officiating is just fine.