Interesting Situation...and unfortunate

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Maverick

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is not an official's error. But I haven't seen any rule book reference saying you can't correct an official's error in this situation.

Rule book 5-10, case book comment about that rule:

Timing mistakes which may be corrected are LIMITED TO THOSE WHICH RESULT FROM THE TIMER'S NEGLECT TO STOP OR START THE CLOCK AS SPECIFIED BY THE RULES.

5-9-1 After time has been out, the clock shall be started when THE OFFICIAL SIGNALS TIME-IN.

You just said this play is an official's error and 5-10 clearly states that the only time the clock can be adjusted is on a timer's error.

There is no rule or case play that allows for time being adjusted on an official's error.

So as I have said since the first post, by rule you cannot fix it.

In practice I'm envoking 2-3, to fix the mistake, but that is fudging since 5.10.1.C does cover the situation.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Rule book 5-10, case book comment about that rule:

Timing mistakes which may be corrected are LIMITED TO THOSE WHICH RESULT FROM THE TIMER'S NEGLECT TO STOP OR START THE CLOCK AS SPECIFIED BY THE RULES.

5-9-1 After time has been out, the clock shall be started when THE OFFICIAL SIGNALS TIME-IN.

You just said this play is an official's error and 5-10 clearly states that the only time the clock can be adjusted is on a timer's error.

There is no rule or case play that allows for time being adjusted on an official's error.

So as I have said since the first post, by rule you cannot fix it.

In practice I'm envoking 2-3, to fix the mistake, but that is fudging since 5.10.1.C does cover the situation.

Not at all correct. I don't see the word "only" anywhere in 5-10. 5-10 is dealing with timer's mistakes and says officials can correct them. It doesn't say that is the only kind of timing mistake that officials can correct. 2-5-5 does however say that the referee can correct "obvious timing errors" and makes no mention of who caused the timing error. You keep seeing one example of a timing error and thinking that applies to all timing errors.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Maverick

Not at all correct. I don't see the word "only" anywhere in 5-10. 5-10 is dealing with timer's mistakes and says officials can correct them. It doesn't say that is the only kind of timing mistake that officials can correct. 2-5-5 does however say that the referee can correct "obvious timing errors" and makes no mention of who caused the timing error. You keep seeing one example of a timing error and thinking that applies to all timing errors.

You are like talking to a freaking rock, I quoted the stupid rule that said ONLY A TIMER'S ERROR MAY BE CORRECTED.

I'm done, you are wrong, and it is obvious you will NEVER get it.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by blindzebra
You are like talking to a freaking rock, I quoted the stupid rule that said ONLY A TIMER'S ERROR MAY BE CORRECTED.

I'm done, you are wrong, and it is obvious you will NEVER get it.

You quoted a rule that doesn't exist. There isn't anything in 5-10 that says it is "limited to" timer's mistakes. Besides, if you say that it clearly states that type of error can't be corrected, then you can't invoke 2-3 because 2-3 says "The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules." Since you claim it is specifically covered, you'd be wrong on that logic as well.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Maverick
[/B]

There isn't anything in 5-10 that says it is "limited to" timer's mistakes. [/B][/QUOTE]Say what?

Rule 5-10 is called "TIMER'S MISTAKES". That's the title of the rule, and all that's addressed in rule 5-10 is timer's mistakes.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

There isn't anything in 5-10 that says it is "limited to" timer's mistakes. [/B]

Say what?

Rule 5-10 is called "TIMER'S MISTAKES". That's the title of the rule, and all that's addressed in rule 5-10 is timer's mistakes.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree, which I stated in an earlier post. My point was that there isn't anything in 5-10 that states that timing errors that can be corrected are "limited to" errors made by the timer. 5-10 says that timer's mistakes can be corrected but it doesn't say that is the only type of timing errors that can be corrected.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Maverick

Say what?

Rule 5-10 is called "TIMER'S MISTAKES". That's the title of the rule, and all that's addressed in rule 5-10 is timer's mistakes.

[/B]

Yes, I agree, which I stated in an earlier post. My point was that there isn't anything in 5-10 that states that timing errors that can be corrected are "limited to" errors made by the timer. 5-10 says that timer's mistakes can be corrected but it doesn't say that is the only type of timing errors that can be corrected. [/B][/QUOTE]What other timing errors can be corrected then? And would you please cite the rule(s) that allows you to correct the timing error(s) that you list.

I can't think of any, but I'm always willing to learn.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, I agree, which I stated in an earlier post. My point was that there isn't anything in 5-10 that states that timing errors that can be corrected are "limited to" errors made by the timer. 5-10 says that timer's mistakes can be corrected but it doesn't say that is the only type of timing errors that can be corrected. [/B]

What other timing errors can be corrected then? And would you please cite the rule(s) that allows you to correct the timing error(s) that you list.

I can't think of any, but I'm always willing to learn. [/B][/QUOTE]

JR this is the comment in the case book under 5.10:



Timing mistakes which may be corrected are LIMITED TO THOSE WHICH RESULT FROM THE TIMER'S NEGLECT TO STOP OR START THE CLOCK AS SPECIFIED BY THE RULES.

He's been shown that 3 times and he still says it does not say it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
[/B]

JR this is the comment in the case book under 5.10:

Timing mistakes which may be corrected are LIMITED TO THOSE WHICH RESULT FROM THE TIMER'S NEGLECT TO STOP OR START THE CLOCK AS SPECIFIED BY THE RULES.

He's been shown that 3 times and he still says it does not say it.

[/B][/QUOTE]Yeah, I knew that was there, BZ. I was just wondering if he knew something that I didn't know. He says that he does. I guess I won't know for sure until I see his response and the accompanying rules citations that he attaches to it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

You are like talking to a freaking rock, I quoted the stupid rule that said ONLY A TIMER'S ERROR MAY BE CORRECTED.

I'm done, you are wrong, and it is obvious you will NEVER get it.

Wait.

Maybe I missed something but didn't you tell me that in my sitch you would correct an obvious OFFICIAL'S error?? Let's go to the videotape:

Originally posted by Dan_Ref


Look, I tried to uncomplicate this with a simple play. You continue to keep it complicated. So let's try 1 more time. No foul. No running the endline. A simple throw-in by A1 on his endline with seconds left in the game. And the T decides to chop in time as he bounces the ball to A1 for the throw-in and the horn goes off to end the game as A1 catches the ball for the throw-in. We have an official's error which you claim cannot be corrected. So by rule, you claim, the game's over.

You are R. What do you do? Don't quote me any rules, let's pretend I'm Coach A and you just cost me a playoff spot. You going to explain to me on the court why the game is over? Or you gonna wait for me to come banging on the locker room door?

Yeah, looks like you would set aside your rule for my case. What gives??

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Wait.

Maybe I missed something but didn't you tell me that in my sitch you would correct an obvious OFFICIAL'S error?? Let's go to the videotape:

Yeah, looks like you would set aside your rule for my case. What gives??

I said I would do what is fair even though it is not supported by rule.

The other side is incorrectly saying that IT CAN BE FIXED by rule 5-10. There is no rule support to fix this situation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

BZ and JR keep forgetting some of the fundamentals of basketball.

NFHS R5-S9-A1 states: After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.

R5-S9-A1 is not the all governing article in S9. Articles 2, 3, and 4 defines what actions cause the game clock is to start. Article 1 describes actions that the game officials and timer must follow whenever the conditions of Articles 2, 3 or 4 are met. It does not matter whether the game officials did or did not signal time-in or whether the game clock operator did or did not start the clock when the game official correctly or incorrectly signaled or did not signal at all, Articles 2, 3, and 4 are the only things that cause the clock to start. And in all three articles, the action that causes the game clock to start is contact between the ball and a player on the court.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
BZ and JR keep forgetting some of the fundamentals of basketball.

NFHS R5-S9-A1 states: After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.

R5-S9-A1 is not the all governing article in S9. Articles 2, 3, and 4 defines what actions cause the game clock is to start. Article 1 describes actions that the game officials and timer must follow whenever the conditions of Articles 2, 3 or 4 are met. It does not matter whether the game officials did or did not signal time-in or whether the game clock operator did or did not start the clock when the game official correctly or incorrectly signaled or did not signal at all, Articles 2, 3, and 4 are the only things that cause the clock to start. And in all three articles, the action that causes the game clock to start is contact between the ball and a player on the court.

MTD, Sr.

Mark where does it say the timer is authorized to IGNORE the signal?

The clock starts on the signal, articles 2, 3 and 4 are when that signal SHOULD be given.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
BZ and JR keep forgetting some of the fundamentals of basketball.

NFHS R5-S9-A1 states: After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.

R5-S9-A1 is not the all governing article in S9. Articles 2, 3, and 4 defines what actions cause the game clock is to start. Article 1 describes actions that the game officials and timer must follow whenever the conditions of Articles 2, 3 or 4 are met. It does not matter whether the game officials did or did not signal time-in or whether the game clock operator did or did not start the clock when the game official correctly or incorrectly signaled or did not signal at all, Articles 2, 3, and 4 are the only things that cause the clock to start. And in all three articles, the action that causes the game clock to start is contact between the ball and a player on the court.

MTD, Sr.

In other words, those articles define what it means for the clock to *properly* be started. Regardless of what the humans do.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

In other words, those articles define what it means for the clock to *properly* be started. Regardless of what the humans do.

Dan:

It looks like you, Daryl, and Camron, and I are the only people that get it.

MTD, Sr.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Feb 13th, 2005 at 09:52 PM]