Sitch 2

[lrpalmer3]

Events happened in this order. NCAA Men.

A1 releases try.
B1 fouls A1.
Whistle.
Try is unsuccessful.
Clock shows 1:46 left in half.
A1 is injured.
A6 subs in game to shoot free throws.
B2 fouls A1 rebounding A6's second throw.
Whistle.
Clock shows 1:46 left in half (not started because whistle was very fast).

Can A1 re-enter the game?

[TriggerMN]

B2 went over to A's bench and fouled A1, who is now on the bench, during rebounding action?

[Lotto]

Rule 3-4
Art. 12. A player who has been withdrawn or replaced by a substitute may re-enter the game at the next opportunity to substitute, provided that the game clock has been properly started with his or her replacement in the game.

Since the clock has not been started, the player can't come back in.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Lotto
Rule 3-4
Art. 12. A player who has been withdrawn or replaced by a substitute may re-enter the game at the next opportunity to substitute, provided that the game clock has been properly started with his or her replacement in the game.

Since the clock has not been started, the player can't come back in.

I agree that by rule A1 can't come back in. However maybe they need to rewrite part of the rule. I think it is intended to keep a coach from being able to sub a player out, wait till the ball becomes live, ie at the disposal of the thrower, then sub the player back in. Therefore the rule says after the clock has properly started, as opposed to after the ball has become live. I would be tempted to let him in the game because I think the spirit of the rule has been met since there was action and a foul....IMHO

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by cmathews

I agree that by rule A1 can't come back in. However maybe they need to rewrite part of the rule. I think it is intended to keep a coach from being able to sub a player out, wait till the ball becomes live, ie at the disposal of the thrower, then sub the player back in. Therefore the rule says after the clock has properly started, as opposed to after the ball has become live. I would be tempted to let him in the game because I think the spirit of the rule has been met since there was action and a foul....IMHO

The rule doesn't say after time has run off the clock, does it? I believe it says after the clock has been properly started. IF the timer starts the clock & stops it without any time running off, I'm letting the player come into the game. The timer can flip the switch off & then on and time might not run off the clock.

If the whistle is blown before anyone can touch the rebound, then I would be able to better sell my keeping the sub out of the game.

[cmathews]

yeah you are right it says started not time run off...why are we trying to keep subs from reentering, if there was actually some playing that occured???

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref

The rule doesn't say after time has run off the clock, does it? I believe it says after the clock has been properly started. IF the timer starts the clock & stops it without any time running off, I'm letting the player come into the game. The timer can flip the switch off & then on and time might not run off the clock.

If the whistle is blown before anyone can touch the rebound, then I would be able to better sell my keeping the sub out of the game.

I'm not sure you would need to sell this. I believe this is the proper procedure - A1 can return ONLY if the clock was chopped back in.

[Daryl H. Long]

The key to allowing sub or not is based on if the clock SHOULD HAVE properly started.

If the foul by B was BEFORE anyone else touched the ball then the clock should not have started, therefore sub A1must wait.

It the foul by B was AFTER ball was touched then the clock should have been properly started and Sub A1 may reenter legally.

Just because the timer FAILED to start the clock properly does not take away conditions for A1 to legally reenter the game.

Additionally, since 10th/sec are not showing it would be possible for clock to have been started and turned off with no visible reduction evident. (Example of this would be there were actually 1:46.9 when free throw missed, when ball was touched the clock starts, whistle blows for foul and timer stops clock at 1:46.1. With no 10th showing the clock would continue to show 1:46 both before and after the foul)

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
The key to allowing sub or not is based on if the clock SHOULD HAVE properly started.

If the foul by B was BEFORE anyone else touched the ball then the clock should not have started, therefore sub A1must wait.

It the foul by B was AFTER ball was touched then the clock should have been properly started and Sub A1 may reenter legally.

Just because the timer FAILED to start the clock properly does not take away conditions for A1 to legally reenter the game.

Additionally, since 10th/sec are not showing it would be possible for clock to have been started and turned off with no visible reduction evident. (Example of this would be there were actually 1:46.9 when free throw missed, when ball was touched the clock starts, whistle blows for foul and timer stops clock at 1:46.1. With no 10th showing the clock would continue to show 1:46 both before and after the foul)

Agreed! Exactly what I meant to say!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
The key to allowing sub or not is based on if the clock SHOULD HAVE properly started.

If the foul by B was BEFORE anyone else touched the ball then the clock should not have started, therefore sub A1must wait.

It the foul by B was AFTER ball was touched then the clock should have been properly started and Sub A1 may reenter legally.

Just because the timer FAILED to start the clock properly does not take away conditions for A1 to legally reenter the game.

Additionally, since 10th/sec are not showing it would be possible for clock to have been started and turned off with no visible reduction evident. (Example of this would be there were actually 1:46.9 when free throw missed, when ball was touched the clock starts, whistle blows for foul and timer stops clock at 1:46.1. With no 10th showing the clock would continue to show 1:46 both before and after the foul)

Your post was at 03:15pm. Shouldn't you have been on your way to Eastwood M.S. LOL

MTD, Sr.

[JugglingReferee]

I chopped in time. I also had a 1 second count in my head. That's definite knowledge to reset the game clock to 1:45.

Oh, and look, low and behold, A1 can come back in.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
I chopped in time. I also had a 1 second count in my head. That's definite knowledge to reset the game clock to 1:45.

Oh, and look, low and behold, A1 can come back in.

I couldn't agree more

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
The key to allowing sub or not is based on if the clock SHOULD HAVE properly started.

Got a rule reference for that distinction? My rulebook says "after the clock has been properly started".

Just asking.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Got a rule reference for that distinction? My rulebook says "after the clock has been properly started".

Just asking.

I think this one goes to intent.

The "properly started" is there to cover the possibility of a timekeeper simply starting the clock when it should not have been started (either deliberately or accidentally). I think you can infer that this phrase means when the official properly indicates that the clock is to be started.

[Daryl H. Long]

Chuck,

See Rule 5.10.1 and 2.

Comment:The rule you reference is Rule 3.3.4.

In Rule 3.3.1d it talks about a substitute who is ENTITLED to enter.

Rule 2.12 gives the Timer's Duties.

The rules as written assume that the timers are competent and fully understand their duties respecting proper starting/stopping of the device.

If the conditions were such that the clock should have started thus entitling the substitute to reenter should we disregard this rule because the TIMER MADE A MISTAKE?

NO. Why? Because timers mistakes are covered in Rule 5.10.

Rule 5.10.1...the Referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved.

Rule 5.10.2 says...If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an officilas count or other information can be used to make a correction.

See my previous post for the "other information' I considered in making my decision to allow reentry or not.

[Edited by Daryl H. Long on Feb 11th, 2005 at 11:38 AM]