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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 02:30pm
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It also says that contact is expected and contact that is severe may be considered in

how can you say this contact was incidental? everytime a player slaps for the ball but hits the arm, do you call this incidental? he didnt mean to foul he went for the ball.incidental may happen when diving for a loose ball, going around a screen, jump balls, or something like this. NOT trying to avoid a defender and knocking the opponent upside the head.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 03:14pm
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Re: It also says that contact is expected and contact that is severe may be considered in

Quote:
Originally posted by bellyache
how can you say this contact was incidental? everytime a player slaps for the ball but hits the arm, do you call this incidental? he didnt mean to foul he went for the ball.incidental may happen when diving for a loose ball, going around a screen, jump balls, or something like this. NOT trying to avoid a defender and knocking the opponent upside the head.
Someone REALLY needs to read 4-27 MUCH, more closely.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 03:21pm
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Re: It also says that contact is expected and contact that is severe may be considered in

Quote:
Originally posted by bellyache
how can you say this contact was incidental?
By definition of "incidental".

Quote:
everytime a player slaps for the ball but hits the arm, do you call this incidental? he didnt mean to foul he went for the ball.
No I wouldn't call it incidental. The act of "slapping" for a ball is unto itself an act of "intention". He was "intending" to "slap" for the ball and it wasn't an "incidental" act on his part.

Quote:
incidental may happen when diving for a loose ball, going around a screen, jump balls, or something like this. NOT trying to avoid a defender and knocking the opponent upside the head.
I would agree in your saying, "NOT trying to avoid a defender" would be cause for a foul. If he WAS trying to avoid the defender legitimately in my mind - and "incidental contact" occurs without advantage/disadvantage I'm letting it go.

Now "incidental contact" doesn't mean he can "try" to avoid the defender and still be allowed to plow through him, but if the defender has his beak stuck way in there and he gets clipped that's on him.

If A1 throws a forearm into B2's grill, even though he is "TRYING to avoid the defender" I got PC.

What I find humorous is, there are guys I officiated in football who will play and hit hard every play with an injury and never complain, but get them onto a basketball court and they become Oscar winning actors. I've smiled at a couple of them and told them to knock it off. Seems to clean up the overall play as well.

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 07:19am
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In the original play, what if on the reverse pivot it was a shoulder to the chest of the defender, rather than a bump of the heads, with the same result? I think most would agree its a PC. Why should the head be any different?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 08:59am
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Quote:
Originally posted by PA Official
In the original play, what if on the reverse pivot it was a shoulder to the chest of the defender, rather than a bump of the heads, with the same result? I think most would agree its a PC. Why should the head be any different?
If they banged arms and one kid fell down, would you call a foul? Legs?

How many times have you ever called a foul when two kids banged heads?

And more importantly, what's the signal for that?

I can't believe we're still having this discussion. A player using his shoulder or body to barrel over a player is a completely different play. We aren't talking about a player who's trying to headbutt a defender to get by him.

BTW, I'm still waiting for some to describe to me, a situation where two players would be in equally favorable postions and incidental contact occurs. Because that's exactly what we have here. So please, someone give me a play that this occurs in that's not similiar in nature and principle to this play.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 8th, 2005 at 09:08 AM]
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 11:05am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by PA Official
In the original play, what if on the reverse pivot it was a shoulder to the chest of the defender, rather than a bump of the heads, with the same result? I think most would agree its a PC. Why should the head be any different?
If they banged arms and one kid fell down, would you call a foul? Legs?

How many times have you ever called a foul when two kids banged heads?

And more importantly, what's the signal for that?

I can't believe we're still having this discussion. A player using his shoulder or body to barrel over a player is a completely different play. We aren't talking about a player who's trying to headbutt a defender to get by him.

BTW, I'm still waiting for some to describe to me, a situation where two players would be in equally favorable postions and incidental contact occurs. Because that's exactly what we have here. So please, someone give me a play that this occurs in that's not similiar in nature and principle to this play.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 8th, 2005 at 09:08 AM]
A1 goes to the basket jumps towards the goal, but slightly diagonally. B1 in front of the basket jumps straight up within their vertical plane from a spot with LGP.

No arms, shoulders, or heads, just a bump as A1 slides by to release the shot. No displacement or crashing bodies.

Sometimes you will have A1 take a spill on this type of play, but again it is still incidental contact.


You will see the same type of play on the floor when B1, with LGP, slides as A1 dribbles forward and stops to change directions. There will be a bump without displacement, no contact through the defender, no chicken wing by A1, just two players arriving at the same spot without illegal contact hindering either player. This is normally the play where A's coach will be screaming to get B off their player.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 11:24am
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Sometimes you will have A1 take a spill on this type of play, but again it is still incidental contact.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef

How many times have you ever called a foul when two kids banged heads?

And more importantly, what's the signal for that?

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 12:16pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Incidental contact.

Pretty sure that A1 didn't use his head to move B1 or to gain a more advantageous position, as would happen with a shoulder or forearm to A1's midsection.

No call from me.
Agree 100%!
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 08:41pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by PA Official
In the original play, what if on the reverse pivot it was a shoulder to the chest of the defender, rather than a bump of the heads, with the same result? I think most would agree its a PC. Why should the head be any different?

Thank you.

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