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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 03:20am
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I've got a foul. They were not in equally favorable positions. B1 had A1's desired path blocked. B1's contact gave B1 an advantage.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 08:29am
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When the contact occurred, they were in equally favorable positions. The path is blocked only if A1 moves in that direction, not just because he bobs his head.

If you think not, then please describe to me, a situation where to players would be in equally favorable postions and incidental contact occurs.

And remember that we aren't talking about a loose ball situation.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 08:47am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef

Mark, you agree with what I say but you'd call a foul? That makes no sense. Read the post. "...The back of A1's head directly hits B1 square in the face..." B is not displaced. He chooses to fall down when there's contact to his faced. That's a foul? Not if it's my call.
First, the original post never said anything about B1 chosing to fall down. It said that the contact knocked him down. See post below.

"The back of A1's head directly hits B1 square in the face, knocking him down. "

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
When the contact occurred, they were in equally favorable positions. The path is blocked only if A1 moves in that direction, not just because he bobs his head.
Second, A1 did not just "bob his head". Using your own criteria, B1 did block the path because A1 moved "in that direction". He did this when he pivoted.

"As A1 begins his shot, B2 comes in to attempt a block. A1 attempts to avoid the block by pivoting back."

What would you call if A1 pivots and lowers his shoulder into B1? PC? If so, then why not call PC when A1 bangs his head into B1? He pivoted into him. The only difference is that the contact was on the head and not the chest. Either way, its a foul. Player was displaced.

My call, PC, going other way!


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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 10:10am
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Sorry guys but I'm not calling a foul on anyone when the only contact is two players banging heads. It could just as easily have been the offensive player who fell when the contact occurred, or both of them. Do you still call a PC foul on A1?

What if the defender doesn't fall down? Do you still make the same call?

I'm still waiting for one of you who supports a PC foul in this sitch to expalin a situation where two players would be in equally favorable postions and incidental contact occurs. Because for me, this is it. This is incidental contact.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 10:46am
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Look, I know I'm just a coach/fan, and you're not reffing to keep me happy, but I gotta tell ya, whether the call is for or against me, I wouldn't complain if a foul is called in this situation.

Its almost like...and I cringe as I type this...its a game management tool.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 10:51am
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Alright, I'm thinking the spirit of 'displacement' isn't intended for a player going to the floor after incidental contact whether in LGP or not.

This weekend I had A1 with the ball and B1 had LGP very tight to A1. A1 drops his left foot back and cross over dribbles to the left of B1. B1 catches an elbow to the chin and drops not from displacement, but 'cuz it looked like he bit his tongue and it hurt really bad.

A1, B1 and I were all alone out in the middle of the floor, I ruled it as incidental contact, the play went on and not a coach or parent hollered about it.

In the sitch which started this thread, if A bonked heads with B in a normal movement and B goes straight down without displacement, I got nothing. If he swings his head around like an overly aggressive elbowing move and knocks B out of place, I have a PC.

Am I too far off here?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 11:00am
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I think so

Quote:
Originally posted by WyMike
Alright, I'm thinking the spirit of 'displacement' isn't intended for a player going to the floor after incidental contact whether in LGP or not.

This weekend I had A1 with the ball and B1 had LGP very tight to A1. A1 drops his left foot back and cross over dribbles to the left of B1. B1 catches an elbow to the chin and drops not from displacement, but 'cuz it looked like he bit his tongue and it hurt really bad.

A1, B1 and I were all alone out in the middle of the floor, I ruled it as incidental contact, the play went on and not a coach or parent hollered about it.

In the sitch which started this thread, if A bonked heads with B in a normal movement and B goes straight down without displacement, I got nothing. If he swings his head around like an overly aggressive elbowing move and knocks B out of place, I have a PC.

Am I too far off here?
As I read the play, B1 had legal guarding position. A1 moved into him - he "pivoted back" is what the original post said. B1 is entitled to his spot on the floor. Nothing A1 does can dislodge him from that position. If in the opinion of the official the player flopped, then I'd have a no call. However, A1 gained an advantage from the contact. B1 went to the floor. Now we have a 5 and 4 situation. Definite advantage for the offense. Now, I'm not saying every time a player goes to the floor that we have to have a foul. It depends on the situation. What caused him to fall? He's own clumsiness, then I have nothing. Did he flop? Still have nothing, unless I've warned him about this tactic, and then maybe I'll T'm up.

They way I interpreted the play, B1 went down due to the pain and it was not incidental contact, because A1 moved into him initiating the aforementioned contact (that's for all you lawyer types out there!).

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 11:22am
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Quote:
Originally posted by WyMike
Alright, I'm thinking the spirit of 'displacement' isn't intended for a player going to the floor after incidental contact whether in LGP or not.

This weekend I had A1 with the ball and B1 had LGP very tight to A1. A1 drops his left foot back and cross over dribbles to the left of B1. B1 catches an elbow to the chin and drops not from displacement, but 'cuz it looked like he bit his tongue and it hurt really bad.

A1, B1 and I were all alone out in the middle of the floor, I ruled it as incidental contact, the play went on and not a coach or parent hollered about it.

In the sitch which started this thread, if A bonked heads with B in a normal movement and B goes straight down without displacement, I got nothing. If he swings his head around like an overly aggressive elbowing move and knocks B out of place, I have a PC.

Am I too far off here?
Nope, you're dead on, Mike. Know why? Because you judged that the contact was incidental!! That's all she wrote right there, iow.

Any personal foul involves illegal contact. It is up to the calling official to decide whether the contact he's judging is "illegal" or not. You can argue these plays from here to eternity, but that's still the bottom line.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 11:30am
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I can buy that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by WyMike
Alright, I'm thinking the spirit of 'displacement' isn't intended for a player going to the floor after incidental contact whether in LGP or not.

This weekend I had A1 with the ball and B1 had LGP very tight to A1. A1 drops his left foot back and cross over dribbles to the left of B1. B1 catches an elbow to the chin and drops not from displacement, but 'cuz it looked like he bit his tongue and it hurt really bad.

A1, B1 and I were all alone out in the middle of the floor, I ruled it as incidental contact, the play went on and not a coach or parent hollered about it.

In the sitch which started this thread, if A bonked heads with B in a normal movement and B goes straight down without displacement, I got nothing. If he swings his head around like an overly aggressive elbowing move and knocks B out of place, I have a PC.

Am I too far off here?
Nope, you're dead on, Mike. Know why? Because you judged that the contact was incidental!! That's all she wrote right there, iow.

Any personal foul involves illegal contact. It is up to the calling official to decide whether the contact he's judging is "illegal" or not. You can argue these plays from here to eternity, but that's still the bottom line.
I can agree with that. But I could also agree with the official who called a player control for the same reason. He did not deem it incidental.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 11:47am
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Re: I can buy that.

Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
[/B]
Nope, you're dead on, Mike. Know why? Because you judged that the contact was incidental!! That's all she wrote right there, iow.

Any personal foul involves illegal contact. It is up to the calling official to decide whether the contact he's judging is "illegal" or not. You can argue these plays from here to eternity, but that's still the bottom line. [/B][/QUOTE]

I can agree with that. But I could also agree with the official who called a player control for the same reason. He did not deem it incidental.
[/B][/QUOTE]Exactly. That was my point.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 12:20pm
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If B1 flopped, due to the nature of the contact, I would have come up with blocking... I had something similar to this happen to me in a recent game. I am about 5'11" and 210, the same size as "A1" on the court, and a kid about 4' mabye 4'5" (a little guy and dint weigh much), ran upto but attempted to stop infront of A1 who had LGP but there was almost no contact. I could have swore that A1 had been hit by a bullet in a hollywood movie, this kid acted better than Jerry Orbach. I come up with a foul and call blocking. As I report it the coach asks me why and tells me there is no way that he moved. I simply responded that "it was the block or a technical for flopping, you can pick, lets not have it happen again." Immediately the coach pulls the player and has a talk to him about flopping.

Later that game I had two players, a post and a player dribbling to the basket. Anyhow, they both left the floor at the same time and the "Blocker" jumped perpindicular to the dribbler. He made no forward movment in filght to the dribbler, and they collided with some force. They left at the same time so I had a 'no call.' Any advice? Should that have been a block all the way? I took it as they both were entitled to the space where they collided...

Take Care,

Kenny
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gozer
If B1 flopped, due to the nature of the contact, I would have come up with blocking...
I've enjoyed the debate. From my original post, let me be clear that there was no "flop." To add just a bit more info, as B1 pivots away from A2 defender, he was making, in my judgment, a head fake. The motion from the head fake caused the contact to A1 who was in LGP.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 01:56pm
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i would like to know what those that say this is not a foul, would have said to the coach had he stated " it says in the rules book that everyone is entitled to a position on the floor. my player obtained that position legally, and was removed illegally!" ? and to whomever says that player "A" only hit him in the head, he then chose to fall down, that may be one of the poorest excuses for justifying not calling that foul anyone could give.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 02:03pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bellyache
i would like to know what those that say this is not a foul, would have said to the coach had he stated " it says in the rules book that everyone is entitled to a position on the floor. my player obtained that position legally, and was removed illegally!" ? and to whomever says that player "A" only hit him in the head, he then chose to fall down, that may be one of the poorest excuses for justifying not calling that foul anyone could give.
It also says that contact is expected and contact that is severe may be considered incidental in that rule book too.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 02:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bellyache
i would like to know what those that say this is not a foul, would have said to the coach had he stated " it says in the rules book that everyone is entitled to a position on the floor. my player obtained that position legally, and was removed illegally"? and to whomever says that player "A" only hit him in the head, he then chose to fall down, that may be one of the poorest excuses for justifying not calling that foul anyone could give.
"removed illegally" is the key here I believe. Incidental isn't illegal as far as I know...

If the physical contact was judged to be "incidental" and the player was not "displaced" by force like a traditional charge, shove, or pushing foul, but recoiled due to the incidental contact, then I'm letting it go. I see no "illegal removal" as the contact is judged to be incidental.

How many times have you seen a player get clipped by an elbow or make head contact during the normal course of play in HS or NCAA and no call is made?

How about when rebounder B1 comes down with the ball under his chin and his elbows are out and makes elbow contact with A2 on the way down? A2 takes a step back and grabs his beak or recoils, is there a foul there? I say no it's incidental even though A2 is entitled to his floor space and moved out of it.

But if B1 comes down and is swinging hard and does the same thing, I have PC on him.
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