2 Situations Last Night - Coach Question

[coachmjw]

I am a high school coach. We had two situations last night that occured. I didn't argue the calls I just want to know if they were administered correctly. By knowing the right answer it will help my coaching.

Situation 1: Team A makes a basket and is fouled. Team A is shooting one free throw. The free throw is missed and Team B gets the rebound. As Team B player holds the ball the remaining players begin to run down the floor. The official forgot it was one shot (thought it was two shots). He sounds the whistle. Everyone stops - Player on Team B - gives ball to official. After a short meeting the officials decide the whistle was wrong - inadvertant whistle. They go to the possession arrow and give the ball back to Team A who had the next possession. Was this done correctly?

Situation 2: Team B calls a 30 second timeout. The time out is called as B4 enters the game. At the conclusion of the timeout the ball is inbounded by Team A. The coach for Team B sees that two players came out when B4 entered. He informs B3 to get back into the game he was not taken out. B3 enters the game directly from the bench as the clock is running. A technical was called on B3. Was this done correctly? If so is B3 out until the next dead ball.

Thanks for any help.

Coach Wells

[BktBallRef]

Situation 1: It depends.

If play continued as normal on a missed FT, then Team B should have kept the ball.

If the teams just stood there because they thought there were 2 FTs, and B1 just happen to catch the ball, then the decision to go to the arrow is correct.

Situation 2: Yes, by rule the call was correct.

[Rich]

Originally posted by coachmjw
I am a high school coach. We had two situations last night that occured. I didn't argue the calls I just want to know if they were administered correctly. By knowing the right answer it will help my coaching.

Situation 1: Team A makes a basket and is fouled. Team A is shooting one free throw. The free throw is missed and Team B gets the rebound. As Team B player holds the ball the remaining players begin to run down the floor. The official forgot it was one shot (thought it was two shots). He sounds the whistle. Everyone stops - Player on Team B - gives ball to official. After a short meeting the officials decide the whistle was wrong - inadvertant whistle. They go to the possession arrow and give the ball back to Team A who had the next possession. Was this done correctly?

Situation 2: Team B calls a 30 second timeout. The time out is called as B4 enters the game. At the conclusion of the timeout the ball is inbounded by Team A. The coach for Team B sees that two players came out when B4 entered. He informs B3 to get back into the game he was not taken out. B3 enters the game directly from the bench as the clock is running. A technical was called on B3. Was this done correctly? If so is B3 out until the next dead ball.

Thanks for any help.

Coach Wells

(1) If B is in possession of the ball at the time of an accidental whistle, B should be given the ball back at the nearest spot for a designated spot throw-in. If the ball is not in possession at the time of the whistle, go to the arrow.

(2) Apparently the officials did not count to 10 before putting the ball into play. By rule, the officials were correct, but in practice they shouldn't have started up until making sure there were 10 on the court.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
(1) If B is in possession of the ball at the time of an accidental whistle, B should be given the ball back at the nearest spot for a designated spot throw-in. If the ball is not in possession at the time of the whistle, go to the arrow.

Not if the official indicated 2 shots, and the players didn't react to the rebound as in a normal reboudning siutaion.

8.6.1 SITUATION:
A1 is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw situation. The administering official steps in and erroneously informs players that two shots will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed shot is rebounded by: (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2, with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the official's error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be blown dead immediately and resumed using the alternating-possession procedure. In (c), both teams made an attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue.

[Rich]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Not if the official indicated 2 shots, and the players didn't react to the rebound as in a normal reboudning siutaion.

8.6.1 SITUATION:
A1 is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw situation. The administering official steps in and erroneously informs players that two shots will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed shot is rebounded by: (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2, with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the official's error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be blown dead immediately and resumed using the alternating-possession procedure. In (c), both teams made an attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue.

I don't read that in the situation -- if I step in and say "one throw" and everyone but the rebounder acts as if there's 2 coming, tough beans. (Actually, I can't really tell what the official did in the original situation -- maybe he had really quick amnesia or something).

Now, if he did say "2 times" and that's the reason for the whistle, then I agree with you.

--Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Feb 5th, 2005 at 01:36 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I don't read that in the situation -- if I step in and say "one throw" and everyone but the rebounder acts as if there's 2 coming, tough beans.

I don't read anything into the situation. If I step in and say "two" and no one but the rebounder acts as if there's 2 coming, then it's my fault and we go to the arrow.

(Actually, I can't really tell what the official did in the original situation -- maybe he had really quick amnesia or something).

Exactly. So let's not give the coach one answer when another could be correct.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by coachmjw
Situation 2: Team B calls a 30 second timeout.

This is not allowed according to the rules.

[refnrev]

Coach mjw,
1. What did the adminstering official say when he put the ball at the free thrower's disposal? One shot or two? The answer depends upon if the mistake was at this point or with the accidental whistle.

2. What happened just prior to the time out? I'm having trouble understanding how the 30 TO was granted. At any rate, they should have counted the 10 players, but didn't, and the end result was a player running onto the court without permission -- an illegal entry.

[williebfree]

Originally posted by coachmjw
I didn't argue the calls I just want to know if they were administered correctly. By knowing the right answers it will help my coaching.

This is a good approach to deal with officials when you are not confident you know the rule and/or application of the penalty.

Regarding situation #2:
I have troubles with interpretation of the way the penalty reads (notice my italicized statement):

Can B3’s unauthorized (Unbeckoned) “re-entry” into the game actually be assess as a substitute technical? The rule/penalty read:
Rule 10 Section 2
A substitute shall not enter the court:
Article 1 … without reporting to the scorer.
Article 2 … without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters.

PENALTY: (Art. 1, 2) Two free throws plus the ball for division-line throw-in. One foul for either or both requirements. Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live.

Based on what coach said... B3 became the fifth player on the court, not the sixth player, during a live ball. It seems impossible that the officials could "discover" B3's entry onto the court BEFORE the ball becomes live in this situation.

Casebook 10-2-1 Situation B: indicates that a Technical CANNOT be charged after the ball becomes live. Am I misunderstanding something here?



To answer to the last part of your question coach...
Rule 3 Section 3 Article 2
A substitute becomes a player when s/he legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

B3 became a legal player once s/he stepped onto the court during the live ball. Therefore, B3 can return to the court after the technical is assessed without further penalty.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by williebfree

This is a good approach to deal with officials when you are not confident you know the rule and/or application of the penalty.

Regarding situation #2:
I have troubles with interpretation of the way the penalty reads (notice my italicized statement):

Can B3’s unauthorized (Unbeckoned) “re-entry” into the game actually be assess as a substitute technical? The rule/penalty read:
Rule 10 Section 2
A substitute shall not enter the court:
Article 1 … without reporting to the scorer.
Article 2 … without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters.

PENALTY: (Art. 1, 2) Two free throws plus the ball for division-line throw-in. One foul for either or both requirements. Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live.

Based on what coach said... B3 became the fifth player on the court, not the sixth player, during a live ball. It seems impossible that the officials could "discover" B3's entry onto the court BEFORE the ball becomes live in this situation.

Casebook 10-2-1 Situation B: indicates that a Technical CANNOT be charged after the ball becomes live. Am I misunderstanding something here?



To answer to the last part of your question coach...
Rule 3 Section 3 Article 2
A substitute becomes a player when s/he legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

B3 became a legal player once s/he stepped onto the court during the live ball. Therefore, B3 can return to the court after the technical is assessed without further penalty.

Yes.

They are legal if they are on the floor and THEN the ball becomes live. They entered DURING a live ball 10.2.2.

[williebfree]

Are you saying that a Technical cannot be assessed in Situation #2?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by williebfree
Are you saying that a Technical cannot be assessed in Situation #2?

That yes was to your, "Am I missing something," question.

It is a technical, read 10.2.2.

[coachmjw]

The referee said one shot. He blew the whistle after the defending team secured the missed free throw. He should have never blown the whistle. He huddled with his partner - they called inadvertant whistle and gave ball to shooting team who had the next possession. Seems the team who got the rebound is being punished here.

As for the second situation. The team had two come out and one go in during a timeout. One of the players who came out ran back on the floor about 5 seconds after the ball was inbounded. The official called a technical.

I seem to be getting alot of answers. Please give me one answer. Rules like this should be black and white and should have NO grey in them.

Coach Wells

[BktBallRef]

Coach, in the first scenario, you got different answers because you didn't give us the entire series of events. That left open the possibility of different rulings.

In the first play, since the official indicated 1 shot, there's no official's mistake. When he blows the whistle, B has the ball. B should keep the ball. They should not have gone to the arrow.

In the second play, by rule, it's a technical foul. If the kid simply forgot he was in the game and ran out 5 seconds late, I probably wouldn't call the T. However, if he ran onto the floor at his end and got a cheap basket, yes, I would certainly throw the T.

Your questions are always welcome. I check out your board from time to time, just to see what the other side is saying.

Keep up the good work.

[refnrev]

One answer. What BBR said. Mistake in the first scenario. Correct in the second.