Deferring to parnter vs the rookie treatment

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Any interaction with a coach before a game that lasts more then 30 seconds to 1 minute, better have BOTH coaches present. Anything else is unprofessional and inappropriate, even if it is not unethical, it gives the impression of bias.

Being professional and cordial, is a far cry from kissing a coaches behind for a better rating. No matter how chummy you are, the game is what that coach is gonna rate you on anyway.

Agree.

Fwiw, for play-off games in our area, we ask the hosting venues to supply a seperate room for the officials only, and also ensure that the officials will have complete privacy in that room. We instruct all of our officials to answer all pre-game questions from coaches,etc. cordially, but to absolutely never carry on any extended pre-game discussions or conversations with any of the participants. Answer their questions and then cut the conversation short. The officials need that pre-game time to get prepared for the game, and they don't need any outside distractions. Carrying on a pre-game conversation like the one that was outlined in the first post of this thread in lieu of a proper pregame is also unprofessional as hell imo. It can certainly give an impression of impropriety, and impressions can become realities in some of the petty non-officiating minds if they happen to witness little tete-a tetes like that one.

[SeahawkSanders]

That is horrible (they way he treated you and acted on the court). Unacceptable. It's too bad that some of these "veterans," can get so high up and go so far despite their attitudes towards others and their detriment to the game.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree.

Fwiw, for play-off games in our area, we ask the hosting venues to supply a seperate room for the officials only, and also ensure that the officials will have complete privacy in that room. We instruct all of our officials to answer all pre-game questions from coaches,etc. cordially, but to absolutely never carry on any extended pre-game discussions or conversations with any of the participants. Answer their questions and then cut the conversation short. The officials need that pre-game time to get prepared for the game, and they don't need any outside distractions. Carrying on a pre-game conversation like the one that was outlined in the first post of this thread in lieu of a proper pregame is also unprofessional as hell imo. It can certainly give an impression of impropriety, and impressions can become realities in some of the petty non-officiating minds if they happen to witness little tete-a tetes like that one.

Well put!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Well put!

So when he says it, it's well put, but when I say it, it's baloney? You are too....

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by rainmaker

So when he says it, it's well put, but when I say it, it's baloney? You are too....

I mentioned the word cordial...
JR mentioned the word cordial.
I said watch for the impression...
JR mentioned the word impression.

Since you want to keep this alive...
you said you would go get an official and turn the guy in for crying out loud.
No where did I see where JR said he would turn the guy in...if he would do that...then I would think the same thing about him as I would any other tattle tale.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude

I mentioned the word cordial...
JR mentioned the word cordial.
I said watch for the impression...
JR mentioned the word impression.

Since you want to keep this alive...
you said you would go get an official and turn the guy in for crying out loud.
No where did I see where JR said he would turn the guy in...if he would do that...then I would think the same thing about him as I would any other tattle tale.

Okay, my friends told me that I had misunderstood Gordon a few weeks ago, and that I needed to be more careful in reading. I'll give you the same benefit of the doubt here.

Are you saying that if you walked into your dressing room before a game, and you saw the coach who would be coaching your game, and your partner, talking for 15 or 20 minutes about strategy, scouting, match-ups and so on, you would say to yourself, "Man, this is really unprofessional. I can't believe they're doing this. This really gives the wrong impression. But, oh well, it's none of my business..." and just go change in the other room, and hope you didn't interrupt them? That's what it sounds like to me, but I want to be sure that's what you are really saying before I go off on you.

[Baseman611]

I could not agree more with what was said here.It does not only happen in playoff situations, but it happens. I grow tired of calling with old veterans that do not want to listen, let alone hustle. There are many things that younger officals need to learn, butthe older guys feel like thier territory is being infringed upon. Face it some of these guys need to get out, no matter how connected they are. Though there are times where referees are so short you will throw any piece of s hit on the court to cover a game.....


Rhino

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I want to be sure that's what you are really saying before I go off on you.

Your killing me rainmaker.
Yes, the ol' boy was unprofessional.
Yes, it gives a bad impression.
Yes, the official should not be doing a scouting report.
Yes, it is none of my business if he wants to be a jerk.
No, I am not going to run to an "official" and tell them about all this perceived cheating.

This is the playoffs...we officiate in other association's regions. We can't always know the politics of that region.
We can't go in their house and start cleaning it up.

Listen, mick says..."Get in, Get done, and Get out".

What do you think that means?

You are going to see some things you don't always agree with in this advocation. Show your peers you have ethics...be professional...know your rules...know your mechanics...but, watch out who you signal out as a cheat.
I have been officiating for over 16 years...and I can honestly say I have never seen or heard of an official cheating for another team.

If you have a problem with a coach talking excessively to your partner...there have been some very good suggestions on how to handle it. I know one thing...I wouldn't run to another locker room...I would run the coach out (albeit diplomatically)

[Stan]

Originally posted by Smitty
By the way, you're one of the lawyers, right? Good god, you people can write a lot...

With no comments from Mr./Ms. Spelling,Grammer,Punctuation Person!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Your killing me rainmaker.
Yes, the ol' boy was unprofessional.
Yes, it gives a bad impression.
Yes, the official should not be doing a scouting report.
Yes, it is none of my business if he wants to be a jerk.
No, I am not going to run to an "official" and tell them about all this perceived cheating.

This is the playoffs...we officiate in other association's regions. We can't always know the politics of that region.
We can't go in their house and start cleaning it up.

Listen, mick says..."Get in, Get done, and Get out".

What do you think that means?

You are going to see some things you don't always agree with in this advocation. Show your peers you have ethics...be professional...know your rules...know your mechanics...but, watch out who you signal out as a cheat.
I have been officiating for over 16 years...and I can honestly say I have never seen or heard of an official cheating for another team.

If you have a problem with a coach talking excessively to your partner...there have been some very good suggestions on how to handle it. I know one thing...I wouldn't run to another locker room...I would run the coach out (albeit diplomatically)

unbelievable.

Okay, you stick to your so-called ethics, I'll stick to mine. Just please don't call me names because you are willing to compromise and I'm not. If that's how they want to run their district or league or wherever I'm "visiting" I don't want to participate. Yes, I'd tell and no I wouldn't do the game. It's not because I'm a whiner or "tattletale", it'sb ecause of my integrity. It's that very integrity that hopes I never meet you, becuase I don't believe in calling you names either, but I'm having a rough time keeping them inside. Thank goodness you aren't doing the girls' tournament. I won't have to risk running into you.

And, by the way, there's no "d" in avocation.

[gordon30307]

I've worked with many a grizzled veteran in my time. In all my years I've never had one act toward me in a condesending manner, yes they talk to Coache's and Ad's a little too much but it's never been about the game that we're working and they never give scouting reports usually it's small talk. Yes they sometimes get lazy in terms of mechanics, perhaps not switching for example but generally it's stuff that only other officials would notice. I've never had one carry on with a Coach like that in a locker room. If this occurred during a State Tournament I would not do the game. I agree with Rainmaker on this.

[stick]

Originally posted by gordon30307
I've worked with many a grizzled veteran in my time. In all my years I've never had one act toward me in a condesending manner, yes they talk to Coache's and Ad's a little too much but it's never been about the game that we're working and they never give scouting reports usually it's small talk. Yes they sometimes get lazy in terms of mechanics, perhaps not switching for example but generally it's stuff that only other officials would notice. I've never had one carry on with a Coach like that in a locker room. If this occurred during a State Tournament I would not do the game. I agree with Rainmaker on this.

I would agree with both you guys on this. I've been there, done that when I first started out. All one can do in this situation is work the game to the best of your ability doing the proper mechanics. After the final horn, GET OUT ASAP!! Don't shower, just leave. Then I'd contact the assigner and simply say that I never want to work with him again. In the final analysis, chalk it up as an experience and move on.

[Chess Ref]

Working with a 6th yr officical last night. I am a 1st year ref. Before the Jv game he is doing the gladhanding -selling cars routine-investment opportunitys or whatever it was with both coaches. Comes over to me at 28 foot area and lets me know. Him and these coaches go a long way back and we will have no problems with them tonight. What he really meant to say was you are own tonight. And low and behold they didn't let up on me for a second. The best example . Press is on I am in back court covering the play in front of V bench V coach wants TO i blow whistle and and give TO . At same time something breaks out in the lane in front of H bench. Partner didn't see anything. ok i sure as heck didn't either. The whole TO the H coach is yelling at me for not calling a intential flag. foul. My partner who is now selling cars or investment oppurtunitys to The Varsity Refs who are now standing along the baseline. So I get to TEE up the coach -still no partner-his presentation must have ran over-he finally realized something was up when the horn blew and me and the shooter went to shoot free throws. i am glad we don't have to hustle the coaches/AD for work. i am not a very good politican.

[JRutledge]

Chess,

It is very typical that a more experienced official is left alone by the coaches while the "rookie" is harassed or given the most grief. That is part of the territory. An official does not always know how a coach is going to react to them. You cannot blame the official for his comments. He probably thought that the coaches would not say anything or much of anything as a result of his knowledge of the coaches. As a veteran there are places I can go and the coaches will leave me completely alone. I can go other places and I am not known and I am the bad guy that night. Usually this game is called "Good cop, bad cop." The coach was probably telling him to help you out and acting like his calls were great most of the night. Then the coaches treated all your calls as a complete joke in their mind. This is a very common practice. It is not your partner's fault they treated you that way.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Chess,

It is very typical that a more experienced official is left alone by the coaches while the "rookie" is harassed or given the most grief. That is part of the territory. An official does not always know how a coach is going to react to them. You cannot blame the official for his comments. He probably thought that the coaches would not say anything or much of anything as a result of his knowledge of the coaches. As a veteran there are places I can go and the coaches will leave me completely alone. I can go other places and I am not known and I am the bad guy that night. Usually this game is called "Good cop, bad cop." The coach was probably telling him to help you out and acting like his calls were great most of the night. Then the coaches treated all your calls as a complete joke in their mind. This is a very common practice. It is not your partner's fault they treated you that way.

Peace

It is his partners fault to ALLOW coaches to treat his partner that way.

The officials are a TEAM and I'm NEVER going to allow a coach to play divide and conquer with me and my less experienced partner.

If they test this partner and cross the line and my partner, based on their inexperience, does not know how to handle it, I'm sureashell going to HANDLE IT.