Deferring to parnter vs the rookie treatment

[bigzilla]

It is nearing HS playoff time here, and I would like some advice from others, especially the senior refs. As background, we do not use assignors. So, throughout the regular season, you generally call with one or two partners. However, once playoffs begin, the state association makes the assignments, and you can only submit the name of a preferred partner. The schools list ten refs they prefer.

Last year, I get my first playoff assignment, and am assigned to call with a ref I have never met. So, not only is this my first playoff, this will be the first time I have ever called with someone I didn't know.

I show up at the site, about 30 minutes before the required time, as I want to be early rather than chance being late. My partner shows up about 15 minutes after the required time. We introduce ourselves. His first question is "How many years have you called?" I say three. He says "I have called for over 20 years, done 10 state tournaments and 3 state championships. That's why they put you with me. Let's do a little pregame." He breaks out the board, puts the magnetic L and T on it, and I expect we are going to discuss rotation and so forth. He says, "This is the L. That stands for lead. This is the T, that stands for trail." He then goes on to discuss what area each official has, what free throw line extended means, what the coaches box is, the mechanics of reporting, etc., etc, etc. We never discuss things like, let's get the handchecking early, over the backs, make sure your first foul is a good one. We instead do Referee 101. I bite my tongue.

We take the court. It is a girls game. As in many first round playoffs, it is a fairly decent team vs. a team that knows it will be a huge upset to get past this round (first round loser eliminated). Both teams are pressing to start. After about 2 minutes of the first quarter, during a timeout, he tells me "if they get close to each other call a foul". I said "Even if its not a foul?" He says yes. I said "I'm not going to call a foul that isn't there". He says nothing, turns and walks away from me. He then proceeds to call about 4 very questionable, IMO, fouls in the next minute and a half, and the better team calls time out. He then comes to me and says..."see, this team only has one good player. They can't afford her in foul trouble. That team knows they are going to win if they don't lose their starters, so they can't afford foul trouble. Now, they are both going to get out of that pressing..THAT'S good game management". He again turns and walks off. A few minutes later, I have an out of bounds call on the baseline from his side of the court, I blow it dead, and ask for help. He just stares at me. I ask for help again, he just stares at me. I walk out towards him, he meets me halfway. I ask for help and he says "I'M not going to come in here and tell you who that went out on" and walks off. Next time out, he comes to me and says...you missed that foul over there, and actually points to the place on the court it had just happened. I say I didn't miss it, I passed on it. He then makes a fairly obvious rolling of his eyes and his head, shakes his head and walks off. My wife, who is a D-1 ref, is in the stands. After the game, she says it was obvious that he was showing open disagreement with my call.

Unfortunately, he is my parter the entire tournament. So, the next day I arrive, and he is sitting in our dressing room with the head coach and asst. coach of the one of the teams we are going to call. I walk in, no one acknowledges me. I start getting dressed, and they are telling him what great calls he made the night before in their first round game, etc., and he is asking who they play next, which of course depends on whether they win the game we are about to call. He starts talking about how they will match up with a certain team, who they will play only if they win. I finish dressing and go stretch in another area. After about 20 minutes, the coaches come out and I go back in. He proceeds to tell me how "that was good game management" on his part, they understand where he is coming from, etc. My thought is, if I am the other team's coach, and I find out they had this conversation in our dressing room, I am going to be po'd.

After all this, I talk to our local association president, and two other more experienced refs. They all tell me the same thing. You can report it if you want, but if he is connected enough to be getting that many state tournaments, you might be cutting your own throat, plus he is going to deny that he said it. So I did nothing.

With my next playoff assignment coming this week, I will be calling for the second time with someone I have never met, and I accept that the person will probably be much more experienced, but we are supposed to be the third team on the floor. Has anyone found a way of dealing with an arrogant, condescending partner, short of doing what I wanted, which was to grab him by his pencil necked geek throat and face slam him on the dressing room floor? I think that once I refused to follow his lead on the floor regarding calling phantom fouls, he retaliated.

I assume, despite his antics, that everyone would advise not to have it out on the floor, but I was tempted to when he did the rolling eyes and shaking head. Suggestions?

[Smitty]

Originally posted by bigzilla
It is nearing HS playoff time here, and I would like some advice from others, especially the senior refs. As background, we do not use assignors. So, throughout the regular season, you generally call with one or two partners. However, once playoffs begin, the state association makes the assignments, and you can only submit the name of a preferred partner. The schools list ten refs they prefer.

Last year, I get my first playoff assignment, and am assigned to call with a ref I have never met. So, not only is this my first playoff, this will be the first time I have ever called with someone I didn't know.

I show up at the site, about 30 minutes before the required time, as I want to be early rather than chance being late. My partner shows up about 15 minutes after the required time. We introduce ourselves. His first question is "How many years have you called?" I say three. He says "I have called for over 20 years, done 10 state tournaments and 3 state championships. That's why they put you with me. Let's do a little pregame." He breaks out the board, puts the magnetic L and T on it, and I expect we are going to discuss rotation and so forth. He says, "This is the L. That stands for lead. This is the T, that stands for trail." He then goes on to discuss what area each official has, what free throw line extended means, what the coaches box is, the mechanics of reporting, etc., etc, etc. We never discuss things like, let's get the handchecking early, over the backs, make sure your first foul is a good one. We instead do Referee 101. I bite my tongue.

We take the court. It is a girls game. As in many first round playoffs, it is a fairly decent team vs. a team that knows it will be a huge upset to get past this round (first round loser eliminated). Both teams are pressing to start. After about 2 minutes of the first quarter, during a timeout, he tells me "if they get close to each other call a foul". I said "Even if its not a foul?" He says yes. I said "I'm not going to call a foul that isn't there". He says nothing, turns and walks away from me. He then proceeds to call about 4 very questionable, IMO, fouls in the next minute and a half, and the better team calls time out. He then comes to me and says..."see, this team only has one good player. They can't afford her in foul trouble. That team knows they are going to win if they don't lose their starters, so they can't afford foul trouble. Now, they are both going to get out of that pressing..THAT'S good game management". He again turns and walks off. A few minutes later, I have an out of bounds call on the baseline from his side of the court, I blow it dead, and ask for help. He just stares at me. I ask for help again, he just stares at me. I walk out towards him, he meets me halfway. I ask for help and he says "I'M not going to come in here and tell you who that went out on" and walks off. Next time out, he comes to me and says...you missed that foul over there, and actually points to the place on the court it had just happened. I say I didn't miss it, I passed on it. He then makes a fairly obvious rolling of his eyes and his head, shakes his head and walks off. My wife, who is a D-1 ref, is in the stands. After the game, she says it was obvious that he was showing open disagreement with my call.

Unfortunately, he is my parter the entire tournament. So, the next day I arrive, and he is sitting in our dressing room with the head coach and asst. coach of the one of the teams we are going to call. I walk in, no one acknowledges me. I start getting dressed, and they are telling him what great calls he made the night before in their first round game, etc., and he is asking who they play next, which of course depends on whether they win the game we are about to call. He starts talking about how they will match up with a certain team, who they will play only if they win. I finish dressing and go stretch in another area. After about 20 minutes, the coaches come out and I go back in. He proceeds to tell me how "that was good game management" on his part, they understand where he is coming from, etc. My thought is, if I am the other team's coach, and I find out they had this conversation in our dressing room, I am going to be po'd.

After all this, I talk to our local association president, and two other more experienced refs. They all tell me the same thing. You can report it if you want, but if he is connected enough to be getting that many state tournaments, you might be cutting your own throat, plus he is going to deny that he said it. So I did nothing.

With my next playoff assignment coming this week, I will be calling for the second time with someone I have never met, and I accept that the person will probably be much more experienced, but we are supposed to be the third team on the floor. Has anyone found a way of dealing with an arrogant, condescending partner, short of doing what I wanted, which was to grab him by his pencil necked geek throat and face slam him on the dressing room floor? I think that once I refused to follow his lead on the floor regarding calling phantom fouls, he retaliated.

I assume, despite his antics, that everyone would advise not to have it out on the floor, but I was tempted to when he did the rolling eyes and shaking head. Suggestions?

As someone much wiser than me once said:

Get in. Get done. Get out.

Stuff happens. Keep all that happened in your memory banks for when you are a seasoned vet, and make sure you don't treat any 3-year officials the way you didn't like being treated. What else can you do?

[Smitty]

By the way, you're one of the lawyers, right? Good god, you people can write a lot...

[tomegun]

My first thought is to move!

My second thought (the dark side) is to make his disagreemtent into a loud enough deal that you will have a witness and/or embarass him. Yes, right in the middle of the court. If your crew's integrity isn't there purposely you are already screwed. I would also find out how deeply he is connected and work to get there two then bust him out. His is NOT good for the game of basketball.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by tomegun
My first thought is to move!

My second thought (the dark side) is to make his disagreemtent into a loud enough deal that you will have a witness and/or embarass him. Yes, right in the middle of the court. If your crew's integrity isn't there purposely you are already screwed. I would also find out how deeply he is connected and work to get there two then bust him out. His is NOT good for the game of basketball.

Would you really do all that stuff? Some of us just don't have the cajones to stand up to a guy like that, in the middle of a game, no less. I know I don't. Clearly the guy is highly "connected", whatever that means. He's getting all the choice assignments. Who's gonna listen to a 3-year guy? And it sounds like none of his peers in his area would stand up for him anyway. I like the move idea.

[Dudly]

Originally posted by bigzilla


Has anyone found a way of dealing with an arrogant, condescending partner, short of doing what I wanted, which was to grab him by his pencil necked geek throat and face slam him on the dressing room floor?
I

Works good for me. But hey, I just a jarhead so to me that would be classified as "training"

[ChrisSportsFan]

That would suck and he IS bad for the game and I'm glad I don't have to work with that guy. All that said, IF he is as connected as he says (50% filter factor for BS), IF he calls all his games like that, IF he regularly has locker room conversations with coaches, IF he actually has a regular partner who is on his same page, IF, IF, IF. I gotta believe he'll be found out soon enough. You don't call that deep into the state tourney without state association brass observing your games.

[zebraman]

bigzilla,

Sounds like a no-win situation. If your wife is a D-1 ref, maybe she has some connections that can help a little. ?? I'm at a loss.

Z

[bigzilla]

Yes, it was really long, and that was with me leaving out the weird things he did in the dressing room that had nothing to do with how he treated me, but did result in my hastily departing. As I later described it to a partner, I "was riding shotgun at a p***s inspection."

[Smitty]

Originally posted by bigzilla
Yes, it was really long, and that was with me leaving out the weird things he did in the dressing room that had nothing to do with how he treated me

Yikes!!

I think I speak for many when I say thank you for leaving that part out.

[tjones1]

Originally posted by bigzilla
We never discuss things like... over the backs....

There's probably a good reason why you didn't go over this!

[rockyroad]

So maybe this guy pulled all this crap because you let him? Maybe if you had interrupted the pre-game with "That's all good, but can we talk about..." (fill in the rest with whatever you wanted to talk about). Maybe if you had asked the coaches to leave instead of leaving yourself??? I don't know, but it sure seems like this guy walked all over you and you just laid there and let him...best way to make sure it doesn't happen again is to not let it happen again...and if that means getting "in his face" during a time-out, then go for it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bigzilla
With my next playoff assignment coming this week, I will be calling for the second time with someone I have never met, and I accept that the person will probably be much more experienced, but we are supposed to be the third team on the floor. Has anyone found a way of dealing with an arrogant, condescending partner, short of doing what I wanted, which was to grab him by his pencil necked geek throat and face slam him on the dressing room floor? I think that once I refused to follow his lead on the floor regarding calling phantom fouls, he retaliated.

I assume, despite his antics, that everyone would advise not to have it out on the floor, but I was tempted to when he did the rolling eyes and shaking head. Suggestions?

All of us have faced a challenge with an experienced partner at some point. If we haven't, we probably will. The best thing is to keep your mouth shut and do some investigation about your partner. I would ask around about this official and see if he is respected with other officials.

It sounds like the official resented the fact that you were working a playoff game in such a short period of time. I am sure you are qualified according to the people that assigned you the game. This official probably for some reason feels you were not, especially in the condescending way he constructed the pregame. You are just going to have to deal with that for some time until you start working more games that proves your worth. Unfortunately a lot of veterans that have been around for a really long time see younger officials get opportunities that they did not receive and take it out on those officials. That is just the way it is and will always be to some extent. Just bite your tongue and chalk it up to experience.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[B
All of us have faced a challenge with an experienced partner at some point. If we haven't, we probably will. The best thing is to keep your mouth shut and do some investigation about your partner. I would ask around about this official and see if he is respected with other officials.

It sounds like the official resented the fact that you were working a playoff game in such a short period of time. I am sure you are qualified according to the people that assigned you the game. This official probably for some reason feels you were not, especially in the condescending way he constructed the pregame. You are just going to have to deal with that for some time until you start working more games that proves your worth. Unfortunately a lot of veterans that have been around for a really long time see younger officials get opportunities that they did not receive and take it out on those officials. That is just the way it is and will always be to some extent. Just bite your tongue and chalk it up to experience.

Peace [/B]

I don't know...it's obvious that bigzilla belonged in that game, else he wouldn't have been assigned. It's also obvious that his partner was an a$$...but I think bigzilla could have made the situation better (without being an a$$ himself) simply by asking some questions in the pre-game, by being more assertive on the court during the dead ball conversations, by asking the coaches if they could leave so he could get ready for the game, etc., etc... there are diplomatic ways to deal with partners who are a$$es...

[blindzebra]

How about finding the other coaches and have them join the coaches pow-wow your partner was conducting.