Deferring to parnter vs the rookie treatment

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rockyroad


I don't know...it's obvious that bigzilla belonged in that game, else he wouldn't have been assigned. It's also obvious that his partner was an a$$...but I think bigzilla could have made the situation better (without being an a$$ himself) simply by asking some questions in the pre-game, by being more assertive on the court during the dead ball conversations, by asking the coaches if they could leave so he could get ready for the game, etc., etc... there are diplomatic ways to deal with partners who are a$$es...

Whether he belongs in the game or not is not my issue. The issue is whether those around him think he belongs there. Whether the official is an @@@ or not is not going to change the fact that he will probably have to deal with this in the future. Most officials will have no problem with him getting the games, but anytime someone gets a premium assignment, there are always someone that thinks someone did not deserve to be there. Wait until the NCAA Tournament and there will be some official here that "player hates" on another official and what they accomplished. It happens in our playoff process and I am sure it happens across the country.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Agreed Rut...everyone has to deal with it sooner or later. Just seemed like everyone was telling him there was nothing he could do, just "take it like a man", and I wanted to make sure he knew there were things he could have done...probably the same things you've (and I) had to do as you (and I) moved up the ladder...

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Agreed Rut...everyone has to deal with it sooner or later. Just seemed like everyone was telling him there was nothing he could do, just "take it like a man", and I wanted to make sure he knew there were things he could have done...probably the same things you've (and I) had to do as you (and I) moved up the ladder...

It is better that he take it than say something and get into a he said, he said situation. If this veteran is really respected people will tend to take his word over the younger official and it might cause undue problems to that official.

I had a run in with a 30+ year veteran with an official. I was working an AAU game that this official was coaching and one of his sons was involved in the game. To make a long story very short, this official was thrown out of the game as a coach of his son's AAU team. My partner was the official that gave this guy both Ts. As the story got around the rumor mill, I was the official that threw out this guy from the game and he did everything he could to ruin me. Well after some investigation I was not the only official that the 30+ year veteran tried to talk down or tried to get them fired out of conferences. His confrontations were so legendary with other officials that everyone I know had a story where this official tried to ban other officials from officiating opportunities. All of these run ins were with officials that officiated his son's teams and he thought they were bad or did not call the game the way it should be called (in his opinion of course). This official happens to assign a few Thanksgiving and X-Mas tournaments which I have never worked, but that just opened me up for other opportunities.

Now if this individual was respected across the board, his feelings toward me might have affected my career. Because this official is basically seen as a very average official and has a history of unprofessional behavior, it is just a funny story that people ask me about. This all happen about 4 years ago this March and I have done nothing but achieve more things since this AAU game way back when. That is why you try to get a history of this individual before you act or say anything.

Peace

[stick]

In your situation once he started his officiating 101 editorial I would have interrupted him in a polite way by saying, "With all due respect we really need to go over how we're going to call over the back, who's going to toss the jump ball", etc, etc. I would have taken over the conversation, sort of like diffusing him, but in a polite, respectful way. Then I would have gone out and worked my a$$ off calling the best game I can and HUSTLE. If he's a 20 year official, worked 10 state playoffs, etc etc, he knows your qualified to work. I suspect he may have been testing you out and even though you did nothing wrong during the game, it sounds like you gave in somewhat during pre-game. Gotta nip it in the butt right away because if you give some people an inch, they'll take a mile!!
I also would have told the coaches in the room in a polite way that "since (Bill & I) have never worked together we have to go over our routine and get ready so we can call the game correctly. If you would be so kind as to give us a few minutes I'd really appreciate it. Thank you". Your partner may not like being upstaged like that but he'll learn to respect you and if he's a 20+ year guy he'll tell other refs to respect you too. If your partner wants to go over how he's going to call certain situations with coaches let'em go to the bar and they talk all they want.
jmho

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by stick
In your situation once he started his officiating 101 editorial I would have interrupted him in a polite way by saying, "With all due respect we really need to go over how we're going to call over the back, who's going to toss the jump ball", etc, etc. I would have taken over the conversation, sort of like diffusing him, but in a polite, respectful way. Then I would have gone out and worked my a$$ off calling the best game I can and HUSTLE. If he's a 20 year official, worked 10 state playoffs, etc etc, he knows your qualified to work. I suspect he may have been testing you out and even though you did nothing wrong during the game, it sounds like you gave in somewhat during pre-game. Gotta nip it in the butt right away because if you give some people an inch, they'll take a mile!!
I also would have told the coaches in the room in a polite way that "since (Bill & I) have never worked together we have to go over our routine and get ready so we can call the game correctly. If you would be so kind as to give us a few minutes I'd really appreciate it. Thank you". Your partner may not like being upstaged like that but he'll learn to respect you and if he's a 20+ year guy he'll tell other refs to respect you too. If your partner wants to go over how he's going to call certain situations with coaches let'em go to the bar and they talk all they want.
jmho

Excellent advice, Stick!! I'm mostly with you! I had a similar situation last year in my boys' tournament. It was my 3rd tournament, and I was with a former mentor (if you can believe that!) He hung me out a few times on the court...and we had words after the game. Right after our exchange, a site observer came in and reemed him for what he did to me. I kind of felt justified...but I still didn't like what happened. We are supposed to be a team out there!

[JRutledge]

I agree with stick for the most part, but you have to know the politics of your area. Even if you take over the pregame and become assertive, you have to make sure you know something about who you are dealing with. I have seen over the years very petty situations turn into big feuds that officials end up hurt by. Especially when your experience is much less than the person you are working with. I have heard some veterans not consider you a "real" veteran until you work 10 years.

Peace

[stick]

Thanks Indy_ref. It's definitely a no-no to do or say anything to your partner(s) when your on the court in front of everyone. Believe me, I've been there, done that. Keeping your composure is so vital in situations like that. Sometimes you just have to suck it up for what it's worth and move on. Reminding him afterwards in private like you did is fair in my book. If he hung you out to dry he should hear about it. I'm 100% with you there!!

[Almost Always Right]

I doubt if anything like this will happen to you again, but if it does, make you sure you document everything you can and see if you can get a tape(for added insurance). Then as was said earlier, start finding out about this individual from others.
You don't want to put yourself in a bind but you got where you are for a reason(or many as the case may be).
Surely you must have someone "higher up" that has seen you work. Go to them as a friend and not as an assignor or a board member, and just relate the story to them like you are venting and not trying to lodge a formal protest or delete another official. That might be a good way to go about it.
Whatever you do, don't let this experience affect your confidence. That is one of the few things we can use to our advantage out there.
TR

[rainmaker]

I'm checking in to this thread kinda late, but my opinion is that if I'd walked into a dressing room to find my partner and a head coach from the next game in there together, I'd walk out, find some kind of association official and report it on the spot. And I WOULD NOT work that game, even if it meant never doing another game in that state again. Good grief, doesn't anyone find this immoral or unethical?!?

The whole reason I started thinking about reffing was because of a tournament game where my daughter's team was cheated out of their fair chance by collusion between a crooked pair of officials and a head coach. I can't imagine even standing by and letting that happen.

[JRutledge]

Juulie,

Just because you saw the guys talking?

I realize the first thought might not be the best thing on your mind, but there could be other explanations. I know that often times the officials where I live are put in everyone from a locker room to a coach's office. It is not totally uncommon to see a coach in the official's dressing area for a short period of time.

Peace

[stick]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I agree with stick for the most part, but you have to know the politics of your area. Even if you take over the pregame and become assertive, you have to make sure you know something about who you are dealing with. I have seen over the years very petty situations turn into big feuds that officials end up hurt by. Especially when your experience is much less than the person you are working with. I have heard some veterans not consider you a "real" veteran until you work 10 years.

Peace

Your right, in some cases the who's who of officials and politics do play a role. That's why I'm respectful, polite but firm in my tone. Permit me to be a bit more specific in adding to my response to the original post. I would ask him how we should handle all the various situations during the pre-game. I may say something like: "Since you have more experience then I do I'd like for you to share your expertise with me. I was taught to do (blah blah blah) this way. Do you think that's right or is there a better way that you know?" Option questions like that show him your interested in learning to be a better ref which should ease the situation. Being in sales I know first hand clients love to talk about themselves and will be less guarded towards salespeople when they do. Same thing here. If the guy still wants nothing to do with you--then he's a jack-a$$.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Juulie,

Just because you saw the guys talking?

I realize the first thought might not be the best thing on your mind, but there could be other explanations. I know that often times the officials where I live are put in everyone from a locker room to a coach's office. It is not totally uncommon to see a coach in the official's dressing area for a short period of time.

Peace

I agree with this - often times we are put into the coach's office and once in a while the coach for the game I'm working will wander in and out. Sometimes the coach will engage in harmless greetings. It's especially bad when I'm telling my partner about something bad that happened the last time I had this team and the coach walks in bahind me.

[JRutledge]

stick,

I do not disagree with you stick. I just wanted to make the point you have to be aware of your surroundings before you speak. If you are having a one on one conversation, the younger official might be the one that loses.

Peace

[stick]

Originally posted by JRutledge
stick,

I do not disagree with you stick. I just wanted to make the point you have to be aware of your surroundings before you speak. If you are having a one on one conversation, the younger official might be the one that loses.

Peace

I agree and I hope you didn't get the idea I was disagreeing with you. Being in a similar situation when I first started out. I learned right away to go with the flow. After a while I learned to stand up for myself because they'll walk all over you if you don't.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Smitty

I agree with this - often times we are put into the coach's office and once in a while the coach for the game I'm working will wander in and out. Sometimes the coach will engage in harmless greetings. It's especially bad when I'm telling my partner about something bad that happened the last time I had this team and the coach walks in bahind me.

It sounded as though the whole tone of the meeting between the partner and the coaches was collaborative, and that it went on quite a while. That's a whole different thing from, "congrats on making it to state" "there are some towels in this one" and "have a great game." Besides, it keeps the refs from working together, and that's also not acceptable. Besides, as someone else said, what if the opposing coach walks in and sees this cozy little huddle, and I'm there even just passively observing, it's MY integrity that suffers. I'm not giving that up for anyone.