Walk?

[bigzilla]

I am sure this has been discussed before and I may be asking to beat the dead horse, but I have only been on the board for a couple of weeks, so bear with me:

1. A player dives on the floor for a lose ball, grabs it, and continues to slide on the floor with the ball in his hands. Walk?

In the above, would it make a difference he had been the one who was previously in control before it became a loose ball?

2. Player dives on a lose ball, taking control of it as he lays on his stomach, and then rolls over onto his back.
Walk?

3. A pass to A1 is somewhat off target, and he slaps at the ball as it is going past him. It then hits off his left leg, then his right, all the while he is moving, and he takes three or four steps while the ball pinballs around between his legs. I didn't call a walk because I didn't think he had control of the ball. The opposing coach may be in ICU by now, unless he calmed considerably. Was I wrong?

Thanks again to those more experienced.

[zebraman]

1) No violation. A player can slide from endline to endline while on the floor in control of the ball and it's nothing.

2) Walk. Rolling over is considered "an attempt to get up" and it's traveling.

3) You did good. No control, no travel.

Z

[rainmaker]

Here's another question, in a related vein.

A1 on back on floor with an arm around the ball which is on her belly. B1 on knees, falls toward A1, gets two arms around the ball, in the process falling down on top of A1. Then B1 wrestles the ball loose by rolling over onto back. This all took about 3/4 second. I called a travel on B1. Of course, coach B wanted a held ball (she had the arrow). Was I right?

[zebraman]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Here's another question, in a related vein.

A1 on back on floor with an arm around the ball which is on her belly. B1 on knees, falls toward A1, gets two arms around the ball, in the process falling down on top of A1. Then B1 wrestles the ball loose by rolling over onto back. This all took about 3/4 second. I called a travel on B1. Of course, coach B wanted a held ball (she had the arrow). Was I right?

I think this is a real toughie to comment on without seeing it rainmaker. That's why you get paid the big bucks is for close ones like that. Maybe the most important thing is that you had a whistle and then sold the call. Maybe a held ball.... maybe a travel.

Z

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Here's another question, in a related vein.

A1 on back on floor with an arm around the ball which is on her belly. B1 on knees, falls toward A1, gets two arms around the ball, in the process falling down on top of A1. Then B1 wrestles the ball loose by rolling over onto back. This all took about 3/4 second. I called a travel on B1. Of course, coach B wanted a held ball (she had the arrow). Was I right?

I can see it as a foul on B1, a travel, or a held ball, so what's the question?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I can see it as a foul on B1, a travel, or a held ball, so what's the question?

Always so helpful...

[bigzilla]

I always wonder how much piling on do you allow in an attempt to tie up the person on the floor. If they get on top before they tie up, pretty much has to be a foul doesn't it?

Sort of in the same vein, in my last two games, I have had a coach want to know how I called a foul when it was a loose ball? Well, lets see...your player was chasing the opponent...the opponent was chasing the ball, and your player dove through the opponents legs from behind trying to grab the ball, and in the process sent the opponent to the floor. Having read the rules on loose ball contact, to me that is a foul, although I have to admit reading it left a lot of situations on which I wouldn't be sure. I have decided if its a loose ball and they are in equal positions, contact is permissible, but if one is at a disadvantage and makes contact to gain advantage, this is a foul. Am I way off on that one?

[bigzilla]

As to zebraman's situation, maybe you pass on the foul of falling on her, but to avoid advantage from your pass, you also pass on the held ball and call the walk?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by bigzilla
As to zebraman's situation, maybe you pass on the foul of falling on her, but to avoid advantage from your pass, you also pass on the held ball and call the walk?

Well, yea, and she didn't really fall on her, sort of crawled quickly. Then she gained control, player underneath lost control, there was no need for undue roughness, and B1 rolled with ball.

As to your question about a "loose ball" the NFHS doesn't really deal with a "loose ball" situation in terms of contact, except to say that if players have equal opportunity to get to the ball, contact can be severe without calling a foul, but if one player gains an advantage illegally, that is a foul, no matter how severe or un-severe. The coach has been watching too much NBA (no surprise). You might then say to the coach, "The loose ball foul rules are different in the NBA than they are in the NFHS", but don't say it if MTD is listening. He'll report you for "unprofessional abuse of the language."

[Back In The Saddle]

I, however, like to think of myself as a professional abuser of the language

I think it is a mistake to allow any "piling on." Loose balls with people on the floor scrambling and scrapping are danger areas. If you don't get the first guy piling on, the chances of some kind of retaliation go way up.

It's easy to focus on the ball and whether it's tied up, and forget to watch how the players got to the ball. If one player goes through another, or dives on another to get to the ball, they were obviously not in equally advantageous positions.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by bigzilla
I always wonder how much piling on do you allow in an attempt to tie up the person on the floor. If they get on top before they tie up, pretty much has to be a foul doesn't it?

Sort of in the same vein, in my last two games, I have had a coach want to know how I called a foul when it was a loose ball? Well, lets see...your player was chasing the opponent...the opponent was chasing the ball, and your player dove through the opponents legs from behind trying to grab the ball, and in the process sent the opponent to the floor. Having read the rules on loose ball contact, to me that is a foul, although I have to admit reading it left a lot of situations on which I wouldn't be sure. I have decided if its a loose ball and they are in equal positions, contact is permissible, but if one is at a disadvantage and makes contact to gain advantage, this is a foul. Am I way off on that one?

I've also had coaches ask before how it can be a foul when they don't have the ball. I have to smile and walk away because I know if I talk then I'm getting in trouble.

[SamIAm]

I will offer a slight disagreement on Number 2. I don't have a travel if it's their momentum that rolls them. I have previously posted that I can't see a player rolling more than one and a half revolutions at the extreme, but most likely one revolution before it turns into a travel.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by SamIAm
I will offer a slight disagreement on Number 2. I don't have a travel if it's their momentum that rolls them. I have previously posted that I can't see a player rolling more than one and a half revolutions at the extreme, but most likely one revolution before it turns into a travel.

So if a player stops his dribble and his momentum causes him to lift and put back down his pivot foot, will you pass on that, too?

[stick]

Question: I've seen this called two different ways. A1 passes to A2. A2 slaps it down off the court without establishing possession, then gains possession and begins to dribble. Some refs call nothing and some call double-dribble. Which is it?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by stick
Question: I've seen this called two different ways. A1 passes to A2. A2 slaps it down off the court without establishing possession, then gains possession and begins to dribble. Some refs call nothing and some call double-dribble. Which is it?

As described, it's nothing. But if the official judges that the "slap" included "gaining control", it would be a violation.