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-   -   The carry: walk or double dribble? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/18113-carry-walk-double-dribble.html)

Bart Tyson Wed Feb 02, 2005 09:13am
Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Once the player has ended their dribble, if he/she starts another dribble its a violation. The dribbler does not have to touch the ball before the violation occurs. The violation occurs when he/she initiates the dribble. A bounce pass can not be confused for a dribble. For example, A1 dribbles up the court and ends their dribble. They then initiate another dribble but before the ball bounces back to their hand the ball is touched by the defender. I have an illegal dribble even though the dribbler was not the first to touch it after it hit the floor. The illegal dribble is called at the start of the dribble.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. You start a dribble by releasing the ball to the floor. However, the drible is not completed until she is the 1st to touch the ball after the release. If she does not touch the ball then its not a dribble.

BktBallRef Wed Feb 02, 2005 09:24am
Re: Splitting Hairs
 
Quote:
Originally posted by South GA BBall Ref
It amazes me how we split hairs on terminology on this board. Carrying vs. palming vs. illegal dribble. It is simply a violation, call it what you like, the offense got an advantage and should lose the possession.
Exactly. This is the type of silliness that I referred to early this week.

Palming/carrying the ball is a vilation. It's an illegal dribble and there is a signal for it.

DO NOT call traveling in this situation. It will only further confuse EVERYONE in the gym.

DO NOT call a double dribble in this situation. It will only further confuse EVERYONE in the gym.

There is a specific mechanic in the rule book for these very reasons. And if you don't think there's such a violation, pull out your rule book from 2000-01 and read the POE on palming/carrying the ball. It is not traveling and it is not a double dribble. It is a separate violation.

2000-01 Points of Emphasis

4. Palming
Offensive players "palming" the ball continue to gain a tremendous advantage over defensive player(s). Emphasis is not only to be given to the dribbler's hand position, but also the activity of the ball while the dribble is occurring. "Palming" not only occurs while the palm is facing "skyward," but can also occur while the palm is facing the floor. The key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has "come to rest" (4-15-4 b). Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.


[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 2nd, 2005 at 01:47 PM]

bob jenkins Wed Feb 02, 2005 09:36am
Re: Splitting Hairs
 
Quote:
Originally posted by South GA BBall Ref
It amazes me how we split hairs on terminology on this board. Carrying vs. palming vs. illegal dribble. It is simply a violation, call it what you like, the offense got an advantage and should lose the possession.
I agree.

If the player is number 0, it's travelling. If the player is number 00, it's double-dribble. ;)

rwest Wed Feb 02, 2005 04:42pm
Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Once the player has ended their dribble, if he/she starts another dribble its a violation. The dribbler does not have to touch the ball before the violation occurs. The violation occurs when he/she initiates the dribble. A bounce pass can not be confused for a dribble. For example, A1 dribbles up the court and ends their dribble. They then initiate another dribble but before the ball bounces back to their hand the ball is touched by the defender. I have an illegal dribble even though the dribbler was not the first to touch it after it hit the floor. The illegal dribble is called at the start of the dribble.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. You start a dribble by releasing the ball to the floor. However, the drible is not completed until she is the 1st to touch the ball after the release. If she does not touch the ball then its not a dribble.
Where in the rule book does it say this? I don't have mine with me, but I do not recall the definition of a dribble including the dribbler being the first to touch the ball. The dribble starts when the ball is forced to the ground. That's when the illegal dribble starts and when it should be called.

By your definition if I end my dribble and then start a new one, it would not be a violation if the defense touched the ball after it hit the floor but before I touched it.

blindzebra Wed Feb 02, 2005 04:52pm
Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Quote:
Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Once the player has ended their dribble, if he/she starts another dribble its a violation. The dribbler does not have to touch the ball before the violation occurs. The violation occurs when he/she initiates the dribble. A bounce pass can not be confused for a dribble. For example, A1 dribbles up the court and ends their dribble. They then initiate another dribble but before the ball bounces back to their hand the ball is touched by the defender. I have an illegal dribble even though the dribbler was not the first to touch it after it hit the floor. The illegal dribble is called at the start of the dribble.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. You start a dribble by releasing the ball to the floor. However, the drible is not completed until she is the 1st to touch the ball after the release. If she does not touch the ball then its not a dribble.
Where in the rule book does it say this? I don't have mine with me, but I do not recall the definition of a dribble including the dribbler being the first to touch the ball. The dribble starts when the ball is forced to the ground. That's when the illegal dribble starts and when it should be called.

By your definition if I end my dribble and then start a new one, it would not be a violation if the defense touched the ball after it hit the floor but before I touched it.
Can a player end a dribble and throw a bounce pass to a teammate?

By your stance that pass would be an illegal dribble.;)

Camron Rust Wed Feb 02, 2005 04:55pm
Re: Re: Splitting Hairs
 
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by South GA BBall Ref
It amazes me how we split hairs on terminology on this board. Carrying vs. palming vs. illegal dribble. It is simply a violation, call it what you like, the offense got an advantage and should lose the possession.
Exactly. This is the type of silliness that I referred to early this week.

Palming/carrying the ball is a vilation. It's an illegal dribble and there is a signal for it.

DO NOT call traveling in this situation. It will only further confuse EVERYONE in the gym.

DO NOT call a double dribble in this situation. It will only further confuse EVERYONE in the gym.

There is a specific mechanic in the rule book for these very reasons. And if you don't think there's such a violation, pull out your rule book from 2000-01 and read the POE on palming/carrying the ball. It is not traveling and it is not a double dribble. It is a separate violation.

2000-01 Points of Emphasis

4. Palming
Offensive players "palming" the ball continue to gain a tremendous advantage over defensive player(s). Emphasis is not only to be given to the dribbler's hand position, but also the activity of the ball while the dribble is occurring. "Palming" not only occurs while the palm is facing "skyward," but can also occur while the palm is facing the floor. The key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has "come to rest" (4-15-4 b). Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.
Well, technically, the carry is a special case of either the traveling or illegal dribble. They took out the carry signals 4-5 years ago then put it back a couple years later due to the confusion it caused.

If, during the carry, the feet moved, it was a traveling...since you couldn't yet tell if they were going to continue the dribble or not. If the feet didn't move and they continued the dribbler, it was an illegal dribble.

The result was the same as the carrying violation that we've had all but those 1-2 years.

They changed it back...as BBR says...due to the absolute confusion it caused.

Bart Tyson Wed Feb 02, 2005 04:55pm
OK, I'll ask you, how do you know its the start of a dribble. Mind reader....HHHHhhhmmmm. Its like a player appearing to take a shot. Defender fouls the player and she passes the ball. Well, I will not rule she was in the act of shooting. I am not a mind reader so i have to rely what actually happened.

Back In The Saddle Wed Feb 02, 2005 04:58pm
Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Quote:
Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Once the player has ended their dribble, if he/she starts another dribble its a violation. The dribbler does not have to touch the ball before the violation occurs. The violation occurs when he/she initiates the dribble. A bounce pass can not be confused for a dribble. For example, A1 dribbles up the court and ends their dribble. They then initiate another dribble but before the ball bounces back to their hand the ball is touched by the defender. I have an illegal dribble even though the dribbler was not the first to touch it after it hit the floor. The illegal dribble is called at the start of the dribble.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. You start a dribble by releasing the ball to the floor. However, the drible is not completed until she is the 1st to touch the ball after the release. If she does not touch the ball then its not a dribble.
Where in the rule book does it say this? I don't have mine with me, but I do not recall the definition of a dribble including the dribbler being the first to touch the ball. The dribble starts when the ball is forced to the ground. That's when the illegal dribble starts and when it should be called.

By your definition if I end my dribble and then start a new one, it would not be a violation if the defense touched the ball after it hit the floor but before I touched it.
I had an odd play last year where the dribbler pulled up, jumped, realized he had no shot and nobody to pass to and simply dropped the ball to the floor. He didn't begin a dribble, he didn't pass, he simply abandoned the ball. No violation.

rwest Wed Feb 02, 2005 05:10pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Quote:
Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Once the player has ended their dribble, if he/she starts another dribble its a violation. The dribbler does not have to touch the ball before the violation occurs. The violation occurs when he/she initiates the dribble. A bounce pass can not be confused for a dribble. For example, A1 dribbles up the court and ends their dribble. They then initiate another dribble but before the ball bounces back to their hand the ball is touched by the defender. I have an illegal dribble even though the dribbler was not the first to touch it after it hit the floor. The illegal dribble is called at the start of the dribble.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. You start a dribble by releasing the ball to the floor. However, the drible is not completed until she is the 1st to touch the ball after the release. If she does not touch the ball then its not a dribble.
Where in the rule book does it say this? I don't have mine with me, but I do not recall the definition of a dribble including the dribbler being the first to touch the ball. The dribble starts when the ball is forced to the ground. That's when the illegal dribble starts and when it should be called.

By your definition if I end my dribble and then start a new one, it would not be a violation if the defense touched the ball after it hit the floor but before I touched it.
I had an odd play last year where the dribbler pulled up, jumped, realized he had no shot and nobody to pass to and simply dropped the ball to the floor. He didn't begin a dribble, he didn't pass, he simply abandoned the ball. No violation.
This is a violation. I believe there is even a case book play for this. I'll have to check when I get home. However, if I understand the situation you indicated above, the player was airbourne (i.e. both feet off the floor). He then dropped the ball to the floor. This is considered the start of a dribble. The player can not do this to protect himself. He started a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Classic travel.

Anyone else agree?

bob jenkins Wed Feb 02, 2005 05:20pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
This is a violation. I believe there is even a case book play for this. I'll have to check when I get home. However, if I understand the situation you indicated above, the player was airbourne (i.e. both feet off the floor). He then dropped the ball to the floor. This is considered the start of a dribble. The player can not do this to protect himself. He started a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Classic travel.

Anyone else agree?
I can't speak for "anyone", but I disagree. The case(s) to which you are referring are 4.43.3A and 4.43.3B In both cases the player drops the ball to the floor and touches it. That's what makes it illegal. See also 9.5 "...provided A1 is the first to touch the ball" (and while this case deals with the ball hitting the opponents backboard or an official, those are the same as the ball hitting the floor).

There's also some play where A1 passes toward A2 who runs away. A1 chases the ball and gathers it after it hits the floor. Ruling: It's a dribble after A1 touches it.

The play as described (A1 jumps in the air, releases the ball and doesn't touch it) is just a pass.

Bart Tyson Wed Feb 02, 2005 05:20pm
I don't have anything until he touches the ball. The times I see this play is when the player hasn't started the dribble yet and they think they can start the dribble after airborne.

rwest Wed Feb 02, 2005 05:40pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal
 
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
This is a violation. I believe there is even a case book play for this. I'll have to check when I get home. However, if I understand the situation you indicated above, the player was airbourne (i.e. both feet off the floor). He then dropped the ball to the floor. This is considered the start of a dribble. The player can not do this to protect himself. He started a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Classic travel.

Anyone else agree?
I can't speak for "anyone", but I disagree. The case(s) to which you are referring are 4.43.3A and 4.43.3B In both cases the player drops the ball to the floor and touches it. That's what makes it illegal. See also 9.5 "...provided A1 is the first to touch the ball" (and while this case deals with the ball hitting the opponents backboard or an official, those are the same as the ball hitting the floor).

There's also some play where A1 passes toward A2 who runs away. A1 chases the ball and gathers it after it hits the floor. Ruling: It's a dribble after A1 touches it.

The play as described (A1 jumps in the air, releases the ball and doesn't touch it) is just a pass.

Ok. Now that you mention it I do remember those cases and I believe you are correct that they were the first to touch it. So I stand corrected there.

However, I don't believe that the same applies to a situation Bart and I have previously discussed. For example, if I end my dribble and then initiate another one by pushing the ball to the floor, Bart says its not a violation unless I'm the first to touch it after it hits the floor. I say the violation occurred the second I started the dribble. There reason I say this is in this play it is clearly not a pass. I started a dribble. If you say that the violation occurs only if I'm the first to touch it after it hits the floor, then a defender could touch the ball before I do and negate the violation. I don't believe that is the intent of the rule nor is it stated that way.

BktBallRef Wed Feb 02, 2005 06:12pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Its like a player appearing to take a shot. Defender fouls the player and she passes the ball. Well, I will not rule she was in the act of shooting.
Well, then that's twice you're wrong today. But we've already had this discussion last month.

Back In The Saddle Wed Feb 02, 2005 06:14pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal
 
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
This is a violation. I believe there is even a case book play for this. I'll have to check when I get home. However, if I understand the situation you indicated above, the player was airbourne (i.e. both feet off the floor). He then dropped the ball to the floor. This is considered the start of a dribble. The player can not do this to protect himself. He started a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Classic travel.

Anyone else agree?
I can't speak for "anyone", but I disagree. The case(s) to which you are referring are 4.43.3A and 4.43.3B In both cases the player drops the ball to the floor and touches it. That's what makes it illegal. See also 9.5 "...provided A1 is the first to touch the ball" (and while this case deals with the ball hitting the opponents backboard or an official, those are the same as the ball hitting the floor).

There's also some play where A1 passes toward A2 who runs away. A1 chases the ball and gathers it after it hits the floor. Ruling: It's a dribble after A1 touches it.

The play as described (A1 jumps in the air, releases the ball and doesn't touch it) is just a pass.

Ok. Now that you mention it I do remember those cases and I believe you are correct that they were the first to touch it. So I stand corrected there.

However, I don't believe that the same applies to a situation Bart and I have previously discussed. For example, if I end my dribble and then initiate another one by pushing the ball to the floor, Bart says its not a violation unless I'm the first to touch it after it hits the floor. I say the violation occurred the second I started the dribble. There reason I say this is in this play it is clearly not a pass. I started a dribble. If you say that the violation occurs only if I'm the first to touch it after it hits the floor, then a defender could touch the ball before I do and negate the violation. I don't believe that is the intent of the rule nor is it stated that way.
I'm working without my books here, so feel free to slap me with a rule reference if I'm wrong....

I think you're both right :) The violation occurs the instant the ball is released on the second dribble. However, it may not always be possible to determine if it really is a dribble until they've touched it the second time. You may have to delay the call. In the case of the opponent touching the ball, you're going to have to exercise some judgement. If in your judgement it was the beginning of a second dribble, call the double dribble because the violation happened first. If not, don't call it. For me, it'll probably have to look a lot like a pass (or a helluvalot like he abandoned the ball) for me not to call it.

Jurassic Referee Wed Feb 02, 2005 08:47pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

[/B]
<font color = red>The violation occurs the instant the ball is released on the second dribble</font>. However, it may not always be possible to determine if it really is a dribble until they've touched it the second time. You may have to delay the call. [/B][/QUOTE]Can you please cite a rule from somewhere, anywhere to tell us what that violation is? It sureashell ain't a double dribble because the player hasn't dribbled until he touches it after the ball bounces the first time.

Lah me, if you delay your whistle and the player that started the drbble didn't touch it again, where did the violation disappear to?

There is no rule that states that a player who has already dribbled can't drop the ball,pass, shoot or start a second dribble. What they can't do is <b>make</b> a second dribble. Starting a dribble is not making a dribble.

This has to be one of the most basic rules around. I can't believe the amount of confusion surrounding it.


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