If by rule there can be no walk during a dribble, then is a carry (palming, etc) a double dribble? The rule says that a dribble ends when it is in the palm of the hand, which is what made me think the next dribble violated the double dribble.

A carry is just a carry. It has its own mechanic and everything.

Double Dribble in the following.

When the ball is at rest in the hand the first dribble ends when it leaves the hand and connects with the floor again it is a double dribble.

Traveling in the following.

When the ball comes to rest in the hand and the player lifts and replaces his/her pivot foot. (for it to be traveling the previous has to be done before the ball leaves the hand and connects with the floor)

Carry still has a signal, but they removed the violation a couple of years ago.

So you still use the "carry" mechanic, even though the violation is technically a double dribble?

Nope, use the double dribble.

If you are saying this is a Violation, this is incorrect.

Yes I do. It's mechanic #20 in the 2004/2005 NFHS Official's Signal Chart.

http://www.nfhs.org/staticcontent/pd...KB_Signals.pdf

Any particular reason why you don't use this mechanic?

It could be either double dribble or traveling
 

When the ball comes to rest in the palm of the hand, the dribble has ended. What happens next determines if it is a travel or double dribble. I see this most often when the player is running up the court. If the ball comes to rest in his hand he will probable take two steps before the ball is returned to the floor. Tweet! Travel.

If he is dribbling while standing still and the ball comes to rest in his hand and he dribbles again. Tweet! Double Dribble.

That's my .02.

I do use it, and was asked why I wasn't calling it a double dribble, using the d-d mechanic. So, I looked for the violation, and couldn't find it listed as a violation called carry. But, accding to my more experienced parter, it was double dribble because the legal dribble ended when the ball came into contact with the palm of the hand underneath it, and then putting it back down was a double dribble.

There were seperate calls for a carry/palming and double/illegal dribble.

They combined the two into one signal the double/illegal dribble and called it an illegal dribble a few years ago.

They then changed it back.

The violation for both is for an illegal dribble. If it is one hand and a crossover-type move use the carry/palming signal. If it is two hands or an obvious end of a dribble use the illegal dribble signal.

Whew...I was just flipping through my book trying to find anything in the Definitions section or Violations section referring to the Carry or Palming. Nothing there. Weird that you wouldn't have some kind of text in the rule book to go along with a mechanic.

Thanks for the explanation. That is what I will do.

Technically, an illegal dribble!

If the player takes a step when palming the ball - it is a travel. If they don't and simply stop and then restart their dribble - it is a double dribble.

woops - should have read the other answers before posting this. BTW the carry mechanic has been removed from FIBA (in case you care)

Say what?

Rule 4-15-4(b)--"The dribble ends when the dribbler palms/<b>carries</b> the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands".

It's 4-15-4-b, but it is not mentioned in rule 9.

You may want to review 4-43.;)

You stop one dribble and start a second which is double dribble also known as a violation

Have to double check with Mark on this one....but I believe the palming/carrying the ball mechanic and the over and back mechanic were the same last year...at least in the 03-04 rule book. Have to dig and check it out.

Its not a violation until the dribbler is the 1st to touch the ball after it touches the floor.

In 4-15-4b It's a way to stop a dribble but the illegal action comes when they return the ball to the floor 9-5 (illegal dribble) or picks up his/her pivot foot and returns it to the floor 9-4 (travel)

Yes there it is - subtle but it's at least mentioned. Thanks.

I'm still trying to find out where it says "Double Dribble".

Rule 9-5 Illegal Dribble!! Signals #19

If I left that part out I apologize. He/she has to dribble again. Thus being the first person to touch it.

joseph2493, If I understand you correctly, you would call a DD on a lot of bounce passes. A1 ends dribble, then releases the ball to the floor to pass and Beep, DD when it touches the floor. I must be misunderstanding you.


[Edited by Bart Tyson on Feb 1st, 2005 at 05:02 PM]

It does say may not dribble a second time.

Second = two

Double = two

Second = double :D

LOL

Still looking for Double Dribble Definition. And where all that math is in the rules book!

LOL

The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 

Once the player has ended their dribble, if he/she starts another dribble its a violation. The dribbler does not have to touch the ball before the violation occurs. The violation occurs when he/she initiates the dribble. A bounce pass can not be confused for a dribble. For example, A1 dribbles up the court and ends their dribble. They then initiate another dribble but before the ball bounces back to their hand the ball is touched by the defender. I have an illegal dribble even though the dribbler was not the first to touch it after it hit the floor. The illegal dribble is called at the start of the dribble.

Splitting Hairs
 

It amazes me how we split hairs on terminology on this board. Carrying vs. palming vs. illegal dribble. It is simply a violation, call it what you like, the offense got an advantage and should lose the possession.

Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 

Sorry, but I have to disagree. You start a dribble by releasing the ball to the floor. However, the drible is not completed until she is the 1st to touch the ball after the release. If she does not touch the ball then its not a dribble.

Re: Splitting Hairs
 

Exactly. This is the type of silliness that I referred to early this week.

Palming/carrying the ball is a vilation. It's an illegal dribble and there is a signal for it.

DO NOT call traveling in this situation. It will only further confuse EVERYONE in the gym.

DO NOT call a double dribble in this situation. It will only further confuse EVERYONE in the gym.

There is a specific mechanic in the rule book for these very reasons. And if you don't think there's such a violation, pull out your rule book from 2000-01 and read the POE on palming/carrying the ball. It is not traveling and it is not a double dribble. It is a separate violation.

2000-01 Points of Emphasis

4. Palming
Offensive players "palming" the ball continue to gain a tremendous advantage over defensive player(s). Emphasis is not only to be given to the dribbler's hand position, but also the activity of the ball while the dribble is occurring. "Palming" not only occurs while the palm is facing "skyward," but can also occur while the palm is facing the floor. The key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has "come to rest" (4-15-4 b). Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.


[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 2nd, 2005 at 01:47 PM]

Re: Splitting Hairs
 

I agree.

If the player is number 0, it's travelling. If the player is number 00, it's double-dribble. ;)

Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 

Where in the rule book does it say this? I don't have mine with me, but I do not recall the definition of a dribble including the dribbler being the first to touch the ball. The dribble starts when the ball is forced to the ground. That's when the illegal dribble starts and when it should be called.

By your definition if I end my dribble and then start a new one, it would not be a violation if the defense touched the ball after it hit the floor but before I touched it.

Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 

Can a player end a dribble and throw a bounce pass to a teammate?

By your stance that pass would be an illegal dribble.;)

Re: Re: Splitting Hairs
 

Well, technically, the carry is a special case of either the traveling or illegal dribble. They took out the carry signals 4-5 years ago then put it back a couple years later due to the confusion it caused.

If, during the carry, the feet moved, it was a traveling...since you couldn't yet tell if they were going to continue the dribble or not. If the feet didn't move and they continued the dribbler, it was an illegal dribble.

The result was the same as the carrying violation that we've had all but those 1-2 years.

They changed it back...as BBR says...due to the absolute confusion it caused.

OK, I'll ask you, how do you know its the start of a dribble. Mind reader....HHHHhhhmmmm. Its like a player appearing to take a shot. Defender fouls the player and she passes the ball. Well, I will not rule she was in the act of shooting. I am not a mind reader so i have to rely what actually happened.

Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 

I had an odd play last year where the dribbler pulled up, jumped, realized he had no shot and nobody to pass to and simply dropped the ball to the floor. He didn't begin a dribble, he didn't pass, he simply abandoned the ball. No violation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 

This is a violation. I believe there is even a case book play for this. I'll have to check when I get home. However, if I understand the situation you indicated above, the player was airbourne (i.e. both feet off the floor). He then dropped the ball to the floor. This is considered the start of a dribble. The player can not do this to protect himself. He started a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Classic travel.

Anyone else agree?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal dribble
 

I can't speak for "anyone", but I disagree. The case(s) to which you are referring are 4.43.3A and 4.43.3B In both cases the player drops the ball to the floor and touches it. That's what makes it illegal. See also 9.5 "...provided A1 is the first to touch the ball" (and while this case deals with the ball hitting the opponents backboard or an official, those are the same as the ball hitting the floor).

There's also some play where A1 passes toward A2 who runs away. A1 chases the ball and gathers it after it hits the floor. Ruling: It's a dribble after A1 touches it.

The play as described (A1 jumps in the air, releases the ball and doesn't touch it) is just a pass.

I don't have anything until he touches the ball. The times I see this play is when the player hasn't started the dribble yet and they think they can start the dribble after airborne.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal
 

Ok. Now that you mention it I do remember those cases and I believe you are correct that they were the first to touch it. So I stand corrected there.

However, I don't believe that the same applies to a situation Bart and I have previously discussed. For example, if I end my dribble and then initiate another one by pushing the ball to the floor, Bart says its not a violation unless I'm the first to touch it after it hits the floor. I say the violation occurred the second I started the dribble. There reason I say this is in this play it is clearly not a pass. I started a dribble. If you say that the violation occurs only if I'm the first to touch it after it hits the floor, then a defender could touch the ball before I do and negate the violation. I don't believe that is the intent of the rule nor is it stated that way.

Well, then that's twice you're wrong today. But we've already had this discussion last month.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an illegal
 

I'm working without my books here, so feel free to slap me with a rule reference if I'm wrong....

I think you're both right :) The violation occurs the instant the ball is released on the second dribble. However, it may not always be possible to determine if it really is a dribble until they've touched it the second time. You may have to delay the call. In the case of the opponent touching the ball, you're going to have to exercise some judgement. If in your judgement it was the beginning of a second dribble, call the double dribble because the violation happened first. If not, don't call it. For me, it'll probably have to look a lot like a pass (or a helluvalot like he abandoned the ball) for me not to call it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to be an
 

<font color = red>The violation occurs the instant the ball is released on the second dribble</font>. However, it may not always be possible to determine if it really is a dribble until they've touched it the second time. You may have to delay the call. [/B][/QUOTE]Can you please cite a rule from somewhere, anywhere to tell us what that violation is? It sureashell ain't a double dribble because the player hasn't dribbled until he touches it after the ball bounces the first time.

Lah me, if you delay your whistle and the player that started the drbble didn't touch it again, where did the violation disappear to?

There is no rule that states that a player who has already dribbled can't drop the ball,pass, shoot or start a second dribble. What they can't do is <b>make</b> a second dribble. Starting a dribble is not making a dribble.

This has to be one of the most basic rules around. I can't believe the amount of confusion surrounding it.

OK - I can't find a 4-43 in my FIBA rules?

However, there is still a mechanic for the carry signal (so I was wrong) - but there is no reference to the violation fo carrying anywhere in the 2004 rules (or in the 2004 POI).

WTF is POI? Is that some Aussie acronym? :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dribbler does not have to touch it first to b
 

Can you please cite a rule from somewhere, anywhere to tell us what that violation is? It sureashell ain't a double dribble because the player hasn't dribbled until he touches it after the ball bounces the first time.

Lah me, if you delay your whistle and the player that started the drbble didn't touch it again, where did the violation disappear to?

There is no rule that states that a player who has already dribbled can't drop the ball,pass, shoot or start a second dribble. What they can't do is <b>make</b> a second dribble. Starting a dribble is not making a dribble.

This has to be one of the most basic rules around. I can't believe the amount of confusion surrounding it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

The ruling says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball, not when he/she touched it after it bounced.

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

The ruling says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball, not when he/she touched it after it bounced.

[/B][/QUOTE]The case book play uses rule 9-5 as the reference. That rule states that's it's a violation if the player dribbles a second time. The player plain and simply does not dribble a second time if he doesn't touch the ball after he now directed it to the floor after his first dribble ended. There is NO violation committed if the player doesn't touch the ball again.

If a player ends his dribble, then simply stands there and drops the ball and walks away from it without touching it, according to you guys he has just committed a violation. That play is no different than what you're trying to sell above. When you make that call, please let me know how it turns out.

The case book play uses rule 9-5 as the reference. That rule states that's it's a violation if the player dribbles a second time. The player plain and simply does not dribble a second time if he doesn't touch the ball after he now directed it to the floor after his first dribble ended. There is NO violation committed if the player doesn't touch the ball again.

If a player ends his dribble, then simply stands there and drops the ball and walks away from it without touching it, according to you guys he has just committed a violation. That play is no different than what you're trying to sell above. When you make that call, please let me know how it turns out. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm sorry to belabor the point. Its just no one, until now, has every told me the dribbler had to be the first to touch it after it hits the floor to be considered a double dribble. The only exception to that is case play 4.43.3 as someone pointed out to me. But that is a special case. The case I referenced clearly says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball to the floor. No mention is made about touching the ball. In the case you just mentioned, I would not call a double dribble becasue it was obvious she was not dribbling. She abandoned the ball.

I'm sorry this discussion seems to anoy you. Just trying to improve my understanding of the rules.



[Edited by rwest on Feb 3rd, 2005 at 07:46 AM]

I'm sorry to belabor the point. Its just no one, until now, has every told me the dribbler had to be the first to touch it after it hits the floor to be considered a double dribble. [/B][/QUOTE]If I gave you the impression that I was annoyed, I apologize. It's more like frustration at not getting my point across, which I shouldn't let bother me either because that could be my fault.

Maybe this will help. Think of the act. The player dribbled, stopped, and then dropped, pushed, tapped, or threw the ball. That player could be passing, shooting, starting another dribble or just walking away and forgetting about the ball- dependant on where the ball was directed. This act doesn't fit any definition that's in the rule book until we wait and see what happens next. If you think that the player threw it towards the basket, then you could call the act a "try", and the player could legally go get the ball if it was missed. If the player directed the ball at a teammate, you could call it a pass- and the player legally could not go and get the ball(unless you alternatively somehow rules it a fumble instead). If the player just drops or throws the ball down on the floor close to wher he's standing, and then touches the ball again or continues dribbling- you call this an illegal second dribble. However, it is not an illegal second dribble however until the player actually performs a dribble- which is when he touches the ball a second time after dropping, directing or throwing the ball on the floor and letting it bounce. Iow, the play is NOTHING until the player performs the act that is defined in the rule book, and you can then rule on the legality of that act.

I don't know if that makes any more sense, but I hope so.

I see your point
 

I see your point. The act of touching the ball after pushing it to the floor verifies that it was a dribble and not a pass. In all likelihood, my whistle is not going to be fast enough to kill the play before the player touches the ball again, anyway.

I'm waving the white flag of surrender! Play taps over me!

JR, while what you're describing is the way we handle it in practice due to the possibility that it could be a pass (we're unwilling to just make a judgement and wait until we have an excuse not to make a judgement), I think rwest is technically correct.

It IS a dribble when it leaves the players hand. We just can't tell yet, with absolute certainty. The case play posted makes it very clear that the violation occurs when the ball is pushed to the floor, not when it returns to the hand. We're just calling it late after we're sure.

I'm sorry to belabor the point. Its just no one, until now, has every told me the dribbler had to be the first to touch it after it hits the floor to be considered a double dribble. The only exception to that is case play 4.43.3 as someone pointed out to me. But that is a special case. The case I referenced clearly says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball to the floor. No mention is made about touching the ball. In the case you just mentioned, I would not call a double dribble becasue it was obvious she was not dribbling. She abandoned the ball.

I'm sorry this discussion seems to anoy you. Just trying to improve my understanding of the rules.



[Edited by rwest on Feb 3rd, 2005 at 07:46 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

The play you are quoting is not for an illegal second dribble, it is for PALMING/CARRYING. A1 did not end their dribble, they continued it ILLEGALLY.

The play you are quoting is not for an illegal second dribble, it is for PALMING/CARRYING. A1 did not end their dribble, they continued it ILLEGALLY. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing the point anymore. However your comment is inaccurate. The case play clearly states the dribble ended. The ruling is repeated below:

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

This came directly out of the 2004-05 Case Book. Also the case shows up under 4.15 which covers illegal dribble.

I'm not arguing the point anymore. However your comment is inaccurate. The case play clearly states the dribble ended. The ruling is repeated below:

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

This came directly out of the 2004-05 Case Book. Also the case shows up under 4.15 which covers illegal dribble.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an ATTEMPT TO CONTINUE the dribble.

When you blow your whistle you will be using the palm/carry signal, not an illegal dribble signal.

This is a violation for an illegal dribble, not an illegal SECOND dribble.

Can a player end a dribble and fumble the ball?

Can a player make a bounce pass after ending a dribble?

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an ATTEMPT TO CONTINUE the dribble.

When you blow your whistle you will be using the palm/carry signal, not an illegal dribble signal.

This is a violation for an illegal dribble, not an illegal SECOND dribble.

Can a player end a dribble and fumble the ball?

Can a player make a bounce pass after ending a dribble?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes to both of your questions. But do you agree with me that the dribble has ended?

How can it be an illegal dribble if it is not a Second Dribble? In other words, what makes it illegal? The fact that he palmed it? No. Its only a carry or palming because he did push it to the floor. I can palm the ball all day long while standing still. I can also palm the ball while at the same time coming to a stop. Palming is only a problem while in the act of dribbling.

So what makes it a violation? The fact that the player has ended his dribble when he palmed the ball and then initiated another dribble when the player PUSHED the ball to the floor.

The case book is very clear. The dribble ended. The violation was called when the ball was pushed to the floor.
The case book even references rule 9-5 which states:

A player shall not dribble a SECOND time after his/her FIRST dribble has ENDED, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART 1: A try for field goal
ART 2: A bat by an opponent
ART 3: A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Yes to both of your questions. But do you agree with me that the dribble has ended?

How can it be an illegal dribble if it is not a Second Dribble? In other words, what makes it illegal? The fact that he palmed it? No. Its only a carry or palming because he did push it to the floor. I can palm the ball all day long while standing still. I can also palm the ball while at the same time coming to a stop. Palming is only a problem while in the act of dribbling.

So what makes it a violation? The fact that the player has ended his dribble when he palmed the ball and then initiated another dribble when the player PUSHED the ball to the floor.

The case book is very clear. The dribble ended. The violation was called when the ball was pushed to the floor.
The case book even references rule 9-5 which states:

A player shall not dribble a SECOND time after his/her FIRST dribble has ENDED, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART 1: A try for field goal
ART 2: A bat by an opponent
ART 3: A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.





[/B][/QUOTE]

You are seriously overthinking this. There are two DIFFERENT violations here. Palming, which is the rule you are quoting, is an illegal dribble. You are trying to apply this to a double dribble, which is an illegal SECOND dribble.

If a player crosses over and palms the ball it is a violation when they put the ball back on the floor for PALMING/CARRYING.

If they end the dribble with both hands or CLEARLY with one, releasing the ball to the floor is not a violation, touching it again is and that is an illegal second dribble, with an illegal dribble signal.

Thats the sound of me eating crow
 

You are seriously overthinking this. There are two DIFFERENT violations here. Palming, which is the rule you are quoting, is an illegal dribble. You are trying to apply this to a double dribble, which is an illegal SECOND dribble.

If a player crosses over and palms the ball it is a violation when they put the ball back on the floor for PALMING/CARRYING.

If they end the dribble with both hands or CLEARLY with one, releasing the ball to the floor is not a violation, touching it again is and that is an illegal second dribble, with an illegal dribble signal. [/B][/QUOTE]

I just looked at the 2004-05 Simplified & Illustrated book at the case we've been talking about (4-15-4b). Although, it backs up everything I've said thus far in that the dribble had ended and that the violation is called when the player pushes the ball to the floor and not when the player touches the ball again, the violation is not an illegal dribble as I was thinking. Its as you said palming/carry the ball. The illustration even shows the palming/carry signal.

BZ, a carry that is followed by a dribble IS a special case of an illegal/double dribble because the dribble ended on the carry and another was started. If at the point that it would have been a carry, the player, instead, did not push the ball back to the floor, it would be perfectly legal....because the player has caught the ball. Anything after is a new dribble. Note that the case you cite says "ATTEMPT" to continue the dribbler. However, the attempt is not permitted since it would be a new dribble.

This notion is supported by the fact that they removed the carry signal a few years ago and let the violation be either traveling or an illegal (double) dribble. They only put it back because it was confusing...not because of a rule change.

Congratulations, you guys now have got me confused as all hell too(not that it ain't that hard to do).

I don't care what it is. It's illegal. I'm gonna call it and I'm gonna use signal #20. If anybody asks for an explanation, I'll refer them to this thread. That oughta stop them from ever asking a question ever again. :D

LOL...outstanding!

LOL ditto