SOAPBOX!!!

[BktBallRef]

I have to tell you folks, some of the recent discussion on this board makes me wonder what in the hell some of us are thinking. Some are going way beyond rule interpretation, case plays, and common sense in coming up with some of these calls. A lot of it is just plain ridiculous.

Now there's nothing wrong with some hard, passionate, even fiery discussion on situations that the NF hasn't made black and white. But some of this crap that's being suggested here and even called on the floor, well, it's going to keep some in rec and elementary school ball for years to come.

I've been around this board for around 5 years and I gotta tell you: there are a few who are going to have their a$$ in a sling if they go out on the floor and makes some of these f'ed up calls that have been suggested here. Consider whether you're really listening to what's being said by the veterans who post on this board. If you haven't been doing this very long, you just might want to read a little more than you write, except to ask questions of course. And remember what my ol' buddy wrote several years ago. It's still good today.

"Get in, get done, get out." - mick chambers

PS - I hope that doesn't come off as being holier than thou. But folks, some of these arguments that just go on and on are ridiculous. We need to keep our heads.

Okay, I'm off my SOAPBOX!!!!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 31st, 2005 at 08:25 PM]

[davidw]

Been real busy with lots of other stuff, so have'nt been on much. Just curious, how 'bout some examples. I think I hear what you are trying to say. And it is very easy to "get your tail in a sling" when trying to do what we are asked to do as officials, espc. if one does not take training seriously, listen to a competent mentor, watch upper level officials, etc. etc.

So, a reminder to exercise caution is not a bad thing.

[JRutledge]

Tony,

I have never agreed with you more at this time and this post. I feel the same way. I am by no means a great official. This is my 9th season as an official. Whatever you think of me as an official (not necessarily you Tony) I do not go around calling things that no one around me supports or understands. Officiating is about calling the obvious. If you are going to stand on the rulebook, you better had a ruling, casebook reference, state ruling and even some other evidence through the NF website or NCAA website to support these unusual situations. If not, then you better differ to some common sense.

I say this a lot but most of us that do this want to move to other levels. Not everyone but most officials I know want to get varsity games or college games at some point. Or they want to see if they can work those types of games. I did a presentation this past November on the very subject of moving up. You will not move up if you start calling things that are only the black and white part of the rulebook. You have to use common sense and know how deal with coaches. If you cannot figure out both of these things, you will not move up. It is really that simple.

Peace

[bigzilla]

As I am new to this board, and in only my 4th year calling, I would appreciate some examples as well. I had seen some of the "I would've T'd em" posts, which I guess are in the eye of the beholder, but if it misinformation on rules, etc., give me the details!

[totalnewbie]

He's talking about the 0 and 00 discussion thread (at the very least, maybe others). NevadaRef made a T call he thinks is stupid. Some people tried to discuss it and his comment was basically to dismiss the whole discussion.

Just a simple suggestion: rather than getting all pissy, why not join the discussion and explain what you think is good or bad about the call. Isnt this a forum for discussion? Dont worry about others' advancement. Lets talk about the rules and their application.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a discussion forum has other purposes other than discussion. Maybe we can post a rule: "dont discuss something someone else thinks is stupid." Oh wait, then thats not a discussion board. My mistake.

Oh, and the:

If you haven't been doing this very long, you just might want to read a little more than you write

was directed at me. After I posted a rule and my own analysis and asked for input. Input. Comments. Thoughts and opinions of senior people. But what I got was this.

Clark

[Edited by totalnewbie on Jan 31st, 2005 at 09:25 PM]

[bigzilla]

Thanks...I will go read that thread.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by totalnewbie
He's talking about the 0 and 00 discussion thread (at the very least, maybe others). NevadaRef made a T call he thinks is stupid. Some people tried to discuss it and his comment was basically to dismiss the whole discussion.

Just a simple suggestion: rather than getting all pissy, why not join the discussion and explain what you think is good or bad about the call. Isnt this a forum for discussion? Dont worry about others' advancement. Lets talk about the rules and their application.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a discussion forum has other purposes other than discussion. Maybe we can post a rule: "dont discuss something someone else thinks is stupid." Oh wait, then thats not a discussion board. My mistake.

Oh, and the:

was directed at me. After I posted a rule and my own analysis and asked for input. Input. Comments. Thoughts and opinions of senior people. But what I got was this.

Clark

[Edited by totalnewbie on Jan 31st, 2005 at 09:25 PM]

Clark,

Nevada's T *was* stupid. Big time stupid.

This has been a public service announcement. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by totalnewbie


was directed at me. After I posted a rule and my own analysis and asked for input. Input. Comments. Thoughts and opinions of senior people. But what I got was this.

Clark

Actually this is not about you. This tread was started because people are getting off on interpretations and seriously debating things you cannot find anywhere. If you want to give your opinion that is your option. Tony or no one else (other than a moderator of course) cannot hinder your opportunity to speak on any issue. But it is a little frustrating for many veterans that have been coming here for years and see guys who admit to only working certain levels come up with interpretations that are based on nothing but their own thinking. I have not been officiating that long, but I was around when this rule was changed as to whether both 0 and 00 could be used. It was changed to eliminate the confusion. Any official worth their salt is not going to go digging the rational you gave for calling a T. As a matter of fact it is very common to avoid these types of Ts at all costs. You have every right to voice your opinion, but so do officials that do not go along with your rational either. And the fact that you are new as an official just brings more light to that fact.

Peace

[totalnewbie]

Great, and I am happy to hear that. Like I said in one of my posts on the topic "seems like most of the guys I work with wouldnt call that."

And I am happy for your opinion on the matter. That is what I asked in my post. I asked "hey, it seems like the book allows a T, what is the opinion of senior guys on this board." But what I got was shouted down by BBR. That isnt cool.

And the funny thing is I know NevadaRef is a varsity official with serious big game and tournament assignments. Here BBR is talking about calls and how people who make those calls wont advance and yet the guy who made that call that he hates (and which it seems most people say they wouldnt make) is the guy who is working the serious games.

Plus, I am disappointed when I see a senior member of the board say "shut up and go away" when all someone is trying to do is get discussion and feedback from senior members. That doesnt reflect well on the board. Luckily, that attitude is NOT the general attitude of the senior people here on the board who have always otherwise been very helpful and eager to engage in discussion.

Clark

[totalnewbie]

JR-

Thanks for your respones. But it is not "my rationale." Nevada called the T. I just tried to look at the rule and invite comments. In fact, I asked for someone who knew the background of the rule to post. I'm glad you did. Because I shure dont know that stuff.

I may be a new official, but I am a very senior chief deputy district attorney and am very used to making judgment calls in the heat of battle with things on the line. I enjoy it. I understand the dynamics of common sense and discretion being the better part of valor, as they say.

Unfortunately, here is the current level of the discussion: "that T is great!" "No way, that T is lame!!!"

Sorry if I wanted something more.

As I ref and look around my organization, I am looking for the dialed up refs so that I can learn and advance. I see about 50% of the refs that dont really care to know the rules beyond the basics. They played some ball or watched some ball and just want to go call games. They know a block and a charge. But they couldnt care less about the finer points. These guys, with sloppy mechanics, are the 9 year officals that still dont get more than B games and girls JV games. Then there are the guys that know the rules. The ones that develop their knowledge and their mechanics get the better games. Then it seems like the ones with good rules knowledge and good mechanics that also show good quality calls are the ones that get the top games. I want that. But to get that I need a deeper discussion about what is good or bad about a call rather than "that sucks".

And I have a few senior mentors in town who have really helped me. I guarantee I would get a better discussion from them about the 0/00 issue. They are the senior dialed up officials. The ones that need to tell the assignor "hey, this kid is dialed up too, give him a shot."

I agree that the 0/00 is just about as nit picky as you can get. Which is why I thought it was interesting. It is that judgment and when and why it is used that, as a new guy looking in, seems to be the real difference between the guys that get the occasional V games and the guys that get the great V games. So I want to discuss that discretion. Just saying "bad call" or "yeah, it may be a T but dont call it" is a start. But lets talk about why. I want to explore the personal philosophy behind why you call and dont call. Sure "common sense" is a good answer. But that is an unexplored gut answer. Anyone can say that.

Clark

PS: I think I can very easily say it was directed at me. In the 0/00 thread he tells me to "read more and write less" and in this thread he says "If you haven't been doing this very long, you just might want to read a little more than you write, except to ask questions of course."

[Edited by totalnewbie on Jan 31st, 2005 at 10:14 PM]

[eventnyc]

Wow, this is getting heavy.

Can't we all just get along?

I kind of equate this to referees that will not give you the time of day because they do not want to see you move up. If you move up, you are a threat.

The forum is a great place to get various OPINIONS and learn from others. If you believe that you cannot learn anything from someone that has been doing this less time than you, then I sincerely feel sorry for you. I'll take advice, knowledge, encouragement, critique, etc. from anyone. All in the name of becoming a better referee.

I thank all for their input and help. I'm off my soapbox!

[Smitty]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I have to tell you folks, some of the recent discussion on this board makes me wonder what in the hell some of us are thinking. Some are going way beyond rule interpretation, case plays, and common sense in coming up with some of these calls. A lot of it is just plain ridiculous.

Now there's nothing wrong with some hard, passionate, even fiery discussion on situations that the NF hasn't made black and white. But some of this crap that's being suggested here and even called on the floor, well, it's going to keep some in rec and elementary school ball for years to come.

I've been around this board for around 5 years and I gotta tell you: there are a few who are going to have their a$$ in a sling if they go out on the floor and makes some of these f'ed up calls that have been suggested here. Consider whether you're really listening to what's being said by the veterans who post on this board. If you haven't been doing this very long, you just might want to read a little more than you write, except to ask questions of course. And remember what my ol' buddy wrote several years ago. It's still good today.

"Get in, get done, get out." - mick chambers

PS - I hope that doesn't come off as being holier than thou. But folks, some of these arguments that just go on and on are ridiculous. We need to keep our heads.

Okay, I'm off my SOAPBOX!!!!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 31st, 2005 at 08:25 PM]

Thank you for this. It is so accurate.

Totalnewbie...please stop taking things so personally and listen. Listen to the various opinions and advice given in this forum. Listen to the veterans you work with. Then filter out the stuff that is just plain wrong. Then take the rest and work it into your game. Use common sense. There isn't always a finite answer to every situation. Do what makes sense for you. But please...stop the whining.

[rockyroad]

Preach it, Tony...preach it!!

[BktBallRef]

Totalnewbie, you can get your panties in a wad if you like. But the thread wasn't aimed at you or anyone specific individual. Ask anyone who's been here a while, if I thought you were a problem or I had a problem with you, I'd say it.

You stated, "NevadaRef made a T call he thinks is stupid." WRONG! I never said that, nor was this thread directed specifically at that thread. There have been a dozen threads in the past two months that i could have specifically addressed. I have no problem with someone making a call during a game and then re-thinking it. By dammit, when it's discussed over and over, people are presented with the facts and still advocate going out there making a call that has been proven wrong, yeah, that's stupid.

You stated, "...yet the guy who made that call that he hates..." refering to NevadaRef. BULL$HIT! First, I don't hate anyone here. Secondly, nothing in that entire thread was aimed at him. Finally, I suggest you read the thread, "Players in Official Scorebook," where I wrote, "NVRef is a valuable contributor to this board. He and I don't always see eye to eye but personally, I think has a very good understanding of the rules and how to apply them. To date, he's certainly contributed a whole lot more to this site than you have," refering to a poster that had had unfairly criticized him.

As I said, somtimes new officials are better off reading and asking questions as opposed to writing and trying to provide answers. Many think they know everything. i know I did when I first started. But sometimes we all need to shut up and listen. If that offends you, oh well. It's the truth IMHO.

BTW, in case I didn't previously say it, welcome to the forum! Keep those feelings off your sleeve.

[totalnewbie]

He gets up on a soapbox and I am whining? In what universe does that make sense? And it doesnt seem to be my panties in a wad. But hey...

As for listening, that is all I have done all season. To all the contradictory information given to me. I smile and nod to the guys who clearly dont know what they are talking about ("you can grant the time out to white, red had the ball but hadnt inbounded it yet, the ball is still dead"..."uh, ok, whatever you say"). And I take it from the senior guys who are clearly living off their old achievements and havent cracked a new rule book in years. And I take it from the young up and comers who look so squared away but still seem to swallow their whistle on a big call. And I take it from the guy who uses mechanics that nobody ever heard of but that look so good. And from the guy who says slide a little lower. And from the guy that says stay up higher. And from the guy that says move faster. And the guy that says move slower. And I go in and listen to varsity guys do their pregame. And then I try to pregame with my rec league partner who doesnt want to do it and who says "lets tighten up the whistles in the second half, I gotta get outa here." But most of all I take advice from the squared away officials that I see and I work that stuff into my game. And from my two mentors who are totally squared away. And from the good guys that are varsity level who work with me on JV games to help me out. And here on these boards I see comments or situations that help me. So if you think I'm not listening, think again.

But if you think because I am new to officiating that I wont join in the analysis, that isnt going to happen. I certainly dont think I know everything, in fact one of my strengths is that I know I dont know everything. I have trained too many attorneys across the country to fall into that trap. I am new, and I know it.

It seems that there are a few people on this board who take themselves way too seriously. So I have definately read and listened to that, and learned. Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.

Clark

PS--I didnt say you hated anyone here, I said you hated his T.

[Edited by totalnewbie on Feb 1st, 2005 at 12:01 AM]