one player with 3 T's?

[oc]

MS coach at my school came to see me Monday morning to ask a question about a game last Saturday. Seems one of his players took an elbow to the stomach and fell to the ground. Ref's didn't see it and play was continuing to go the other way down the court. Kid gets up and threatens to attack the player he claims hit him with the elbow. Teammates hold him back, Refs call a T, and coach comes on the floor to calm the player down. Player is still pretty animated and says some more inappropriate things and gets a second T. Coach gets player to sit on the bench but from the bench player is still complaining so he gets a 3rd T and Refs tell player he has to leave the gym.

Can you give a player 3 T's? I didn't think so. Should the 3rd T have gone to the coach instead?

Incedentally:
Coach is a good friend of mine, and tells me that he understands that all the T's were warranted. He's curious if the elbow that his player took was intentional as his player claims-but understands refs can easily miss something like that (especially at MS level). His question for me was whether or not the player is eligible to play the next game-and since the next game is the tournament is it just one game or the whole day?

I told him that their is no specific rule on eligibility in the book and that it would depend on league rules. Our principal and AD check the league rules and although the kid should be suspended one game according to our leagues HS rules there is no such rule in the MS constitution. Coach and AD decide to bench player one practice and first game of the tourney-as well as bring up the discrepancy in the rules at the next league meeting (getting the game suspension added to the MS rules.)

I also warned my friend that he could have gotten a Flagrant T for leaving the bench but since he was defusing the situation a good ref would probably ignore it-like they did.

[Edited by oc on Jan 31st, 2005 at 07:08 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by oc
Know that I've gotten that long background out of the way here's my question: Can you give a player 3 T's? I didn't think so. Should the 3rd T have gone to the coach instead?

Yes a player can get 3 Ts. He could get 10 if the officials decided so. That last example is just an exaggeration, but you have every right to do so if each action is over the top.

Originally posted by oc
--Incidentally I also warned my friend that he could have gotten a Flagrant T for leaving the bench but since he was defusing the situation a good ref would probably ignore it-like they did.

Yeah, but common sense came to the forefront.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

I hope the officials were smart enough to send an adult with the player when he was "ejected."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Its too late at night to going climbing up into the attic, but BBR and JR will understand why I don't.

1) The NFHS is quite clear about how to handle a player who has been disqualified. (Remember, by rule players are only disqualified and not ejected from the game.)

2) When a player is disqualified that player is restricted to the team bench. The player must stay under the supervision of school personnel at all times. School personnel does have the authority to remove the disqualified player from the team bench.

3) When a player is first disqualified, the game officials cannot order the disqualified player to be removed from the team bench. But, if the disqualified player's conduct while on sitting on the team bench is such that the game officials must take further action regarding the player's conduct, the game officials can instruct that school personnel remove the player from the team bench to an area, such as the team locker room, but that the player must remain under the supervision of school personnel.

4) I think that there is a Casebook Play within the last five to seven years that states that the player in question cannot be charged with a third technical foul, but rather he can be removed from the team bench as I described in Item (3).

MTD, Sr.

[oc]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
4) I think that there is a Casebook Play within the last five to seven years that states that the player in question cannot be charged with a third technical foul, but rather he can be removed from the team bench as I described in Item (3).

MTD, Sr.

Can you find the time to dig that out of the attic? Your answer goes against what JRut said. I'm leaning to agree with JRut-I don't see anything in the rule book against a T against a player with 2 T's already or 5 fouls for that matter. Wouldn't they then become bench personal and open game for a T?--just like a manager,...

[Kelvin green]

There is nothing in books or NFHS interps that limit number of Ts. NCAA has issued that ruling for their level of play and they stop at 2. NBA has issued their ruling and they stop at 2. So when I do a game guess where I stop at?

My approach consistent with the NCAA and NBA is that once a player has 2 they are disqualified (more appropriately ejected but we dont do that to kids) They are no longer part of the game. They stay on the bench because we do not want to embarass them or send them out where they could hurt themselves. If we need them to leave they go with an adult that closely supervises them...

Remember the teams cannot turn the game into a joke neither should we. This is where (once again) common sense needs to prevail and not get the game into nonsense. (oh my heck lets tal about the difference between 0 and 00 again)

[Mark Dexter]

No such prohibition in any NFHS rulebook I've ever read, and I've done it before (only once, thankfully). I came close to giving 3 USC penalties in a flag football game this year, but decided instead to forfeit the game.

To add to the fun, I had a post-game ejection just the other night. Best part is that it was about 3 minutes after the game . . .

Of course, I work intramurals . . .

[oc]

follow up-
I worked with the officials of that game last night. They never gave 3 T's. When the player with 2 T's was still complaining from the bench R told Coach that the player should leave the gym. Coach took player out and assistant coach stayed. (20 seconds left in a blow out.) Coach had thought a 3rd T was called and didn't know it wasn't as he had left with the player.

[Adam]

Last year I ended up calling two flagrants on one player in the same game. Had a flagrant personal, and when his coach decided to send him to the locker room unescorted (not the brightest coaching move I've seen), he earned himself a flagrant T with a universal hand gesture directed towards the opposing bench.
Game management wisened up and provided him an escort as well.