VT vs. Duke

brandan89 · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:09pm

Anyone watching that game? If so, I was wondering what did the coach do for the 2nd T? I didnt catch it.

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:18pm

Didn't watch the game but I'm betting it wasn't K that was ejected.

brandan89 · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:33pm

They said: "Coach is ejected." The coach of VT that is.

[Edited by brandan89 on Jan 30th, 2005 at 10:38 PM]

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 30, 2005, 11:19pm

Exactly. As I said, I knew immediately when I read your post that it wasn't K.

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 30, 2005, 11:58pm

I did not watch the entire game. There was a player that got hurt from the VT and I think that was part of the problem. I think the VT coach wanted a foul on the play when the VT player got hurt (which I think was called correctly btw) and he was hot from that point on. I know there was a situation where both coaches were brought together with the officials for a conference. But the game was boring after awhile and I turned it off. I did not realize the coach got the first T let alone the second T.

Peace

dblref · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 08:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Exactly. As I said, I knew immediately when I read your post that it wasn't K.

Why would you call a T on a coach that doesn't deserve it?

BTW, your Tar Heels looked good in putting that butt whipping on the Wahoos.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 08:32am

K never deserves a T. And even if he does mistakenly get the first one, he'll never get the second one.

And yes, the Heels took a little revenge on the Hoos, after having lost 5 straight in Charlottesville.

ShadowStripes · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 06:12pm

Watched the entire game - it was a nightmare game for the officials. A perfect storm for a bad game, Tech trying to prove they were not intimidated by Duke for the first time and playing extremely physical; Duke playing intense and doing alot of trash talking after the physical play; Tech's coach Seth Greenburg convinced he's getting homered; Coach K working the refs because he feels Tech's guys are playing out of control; and the game was a 35 point blowout. Officials couldn't make enough calls. Steve Gordon got Greenburg in the first half and then ejected him with about 5 minutes to go. Needless to say, Greenburg told him he was a joke as he left the floor and if my lip reading was decent, something along the lines about how he won't be seeing him again. No official, no matter his skill level, could've made that game managable. It happens from time to time.

brandan89 · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 08:45pm

Thats what I read.

devdog69 · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 10:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ShadowStripes
Watched the entire game - it was a nightmare game for the officials. A perfect storm for a bad game, Tech trying to prove they were not intimidated by Duke for the first time and playing extremely physical; Duke playing intense and doing alot of trash talking after the physical play; Tech's coach Seth Greenburg convinced he's getting homered; Coach K working the refs because he feels Tech's guys are playing out of control; and the game was a 35 point blowout. Officials couldn't make enough calls. Steve Gordon got Greenburg in the first half and then ejected him with about 5 minutes to go. Needless to say, Greenburg told him he was a joke as he left the floor and if my lip reading was decent, something along the lines about how he won't be seeing him again. No official, no matter his skill level, could've made that game managable. It happens from time to time.

Hmmm...As happens from time to time, I disagree. I'm from the midwest and couldn't care less about Duke or Tech but I thought the game was called much tighter than a normal men's D-I game. I thought Greenburg had a gripe much of the time. I did NOT, however see him get sent home so I cannot comment on anything other than the first half

BigDT (VT) · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 01, 2005, 01:48am

If I may, I would like to ask some questions of you guys.

Someone posted a link to this thread on a Virginia Tech message board and I would find your opinions on the game interesting and helpful.

I should preface my questions by saying that (like most Tech fans, I suppose) my basketball knowledge is almost non-existent. Until now, Tech hasn't had a basketball program to speak of since I was in high school.

1. As a lay-person watching the game, the officiating seemed to me to be biased. Is it reasonable to suspect bias? Do officials ever come into a game with their own preconceived biases that could affect how they call the game?

2. During the first ten minutes or so of the game, one of VT's players (Washington, I think), fell to the floor three times and appeared to have been shoved. None of these incidents were flagged. For anyone who saw these plays, was it a good no-call?

3. Duke had a very large, very tall player ... Williams I think was his name. At least 6 or 7 times (basically every time he went for a lay up) when he jumped up to shoot, the Tech player defending him was called for a foul. What was Tech doing that was illegal?

4. Overall, do you think that, even if the officials were calling more fouls than usual, they were doing so in a balanced fashion?

By the way, on Coach Greenberg's ejection ... I don't think they showed what he did to get his second T on the TV broadcast. His first was kinda curious - he and K were both arguing with one of the officials. Greenberg got a T, but K didn't. I can only assume that Greenberg provoked the foul by using more four-letter words. I don't know what the argument was about, but it lasted completely through a TV timeout.

[Edited by BigDT (VT) on Feb 1st, 2005 at 01:55 AM]

JRutledge · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 01, 2005, 09:35am

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDT (VT)
I should preface my questions by saying that (like most Tech fans, I suppose) my basketball knowledge is almost non-existent. Until now, Tech hasn't had a basketball program to speak of since I was in high school.

1. As a lay-person watching the game, the officiating seemed to me to be biased. Is it reasonable to suspect bias? Do officials ever come into a game with their own preconceived biases that could affect how they call the game?

First of all you proved why fans are totally "ignit" to the game of basketball. You obviously have no idea what officials do or why they do it.

Secondly, officials at this level are scrutinized more than most of us are at our regular jobs. Every call, every non-call, every movement is evaluated. If the officials show "bias" they will not be at this level. VT was just an inferior team. This was their first time coming into Duke in a conference game and it showed. The game was sloppy because VT was trying to take on Duke inside and obviously could not handle the intensity or environment of the game.

Peace

ShadowStripes · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 01, 2005, 10:24am

BigDT -

I understand your concerns abut the game, but let me tell you, fans and coaches lose all credibility on these matters when they accuse the officials of bias. Let's be honest here - do you honestly think all officials have money on these games? The problem was that the officials called so many fouls that it only exaggerates the non-calls on the floor. So, when you see a couple of contact non-calls on the Duke defensive end, it makes you angry because you believe everything is called on the Tech end.

Listen, I thought everyone had a bad night - players, coaches, and officials. Remember in the second half, referee Terry Moore missed a deliberate elbow to the face by a Tech player against Duke. Throughout the game, the players did not control and adjust their physical play; both coaches did nothing to bring their players under control; the officials struggled to bring the game down to a controllable level. I'm sure those officials (Edsall, Gordon, and Moore - all good guys and good officials) look back and wish they had a few extra calls here and there. But there was no bias from the officials against Tech. It's just silly to suggest otherwise.

BigDT (VT) · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 01, 2005, 02:14pm

Thank you for the replies ... please note that I didn't say "money" - I said "bias".

If you have an official who works primarilly ACC games and has seen Duke play 50 times, but has never seen a Tech game (Tech was in Metro, then the A-10, then the BE and only this year has joined the ACC), is it possible that the official could be more accustomed to Duke's style of play and thus inclined, even subconsciously, to focus more intently on what Tech might be doing wrong than on what Duke is doing wrong?

I have very little basketball background so please forgive my ignorance here ... what level of contact is illegal and warrants a foul? Is it a judgment call where the crew could call a very strict game or a very lenient game?

JRutledge · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 01, 2005, 02:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDT (VT)
Thank you for the replies ... please note that I didn't say "money" - I said "bias".

If you have an official who works primarilly ACC games and has seen Duke play 50 times, but has never seen a Tech game (Tech was in Metro, then the A-10, then the BE and only this year has joined the ACC), is it possible that the official could be more accustomed to Duke's style of play and thus inclined, even subconsciously, to focus more intently on what Tech might be doing wrong than on what Duke is doing wrong?

Again, it is clear by your statements you have no idea what officials at this level or any level does. Officials at this level work multiple conferences. I do not know of the specific resumes of these officials, but I will bet thousands of dollars that these officials work multiple conferences. I have seen a lot of Duke's games this year and I do not know if any of these officials have worked Duke's games. I would not be at all surprised if each of these officials works not only the ACC, SEC, Big East, Atlantic 10 and probably the Conference USA. I live in the Midwest and the regular Big Ten officials you see on Big Monday on ESPN work Conference USA, Missouri Valley, Big 12, MAC or any other conference you can watch on TV for D1 games. It would be very difficult for most officials to see the same team 50 times at a particular school.

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDT (VT)
I have very little basketball background so please forgive my ignorance here ... what level of contact is illegal and warrants a foul? Is it a judgment call where the crew could call a very strict game or a very lenient game?

It is very obvious you have little basketball knowledge or a background. Contact can be severe and not be a foul under the rules. The problem that fans have is they think any touch is a foul. If that was the case then the whistle would blow every time a player went to the basic. It really is difficult to tell you what that is because the rulebook is complicated and long. I suggest you do some research and look up the NCAA rulebook and find out for yourself. But the officials during the part of the game I saw did a decent job in a rough game. They called a lot of fouls and probably could have called one during every possession. It is up to the players to realize this and adjust.

Peace