refs were bad for a reason!!!!!!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by chrs_schuster
Ive been there so has everybody else on this board, but I would never, NEVER call or not call fouls on a team just because of their coach. thats just how he said it after the game, that he called it that way!!

Or maybe he meant that your coach was making it difficult for them to focus and make good decisions with his complaining, therefore they kicked some calls that otherwise would have gone your team's way. In the absence of the distraction, who knows?

Of course, many will tell you that there is more than one way to handle a coach who is behaving poorly. There is the rule book way (technical foul, notice I did not say a warning, since that isn't in the book!) and there are "other" ways.

You may have just run into one of those "other" ways.
I know that if I have a coach whose behavior is wonderful on one bench and a coach who is not well-behaved on the other, I definitely want to make sure that the coach who is behaving properly gets just as many calls. I certainly don't want him to feel like he has to start squeaking to get the grease. That would only encourage all of the coaches in the area to complain.

If you have a good example, I say reward him. That doesn't mean that his team should get unmerited benefits, but certainly don't penalize HIS team.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by chrs_schuster
Maybe i worded it wrong, our coach wasnt being a real a.ss just being a coach.

Really? What's the difference?

Your coach was an ***. The official was an ***. Therefore, if you're going to "turn in" the official for what he said, then you have no choice than to also turn in your head coach? Are you prepared to do both? If not, drop it.

[PGCougar]

This is coach to coach. Let's try an exercise:

1. Review your game and chart all the turnovers your kids made.

2. Then chart all the uncoverted scoring opportunities: missed lay-ups, missed free-throws, missed shots, missed stick-backs, etc.

3. Then chart the difference in rebounding between you and your opponent.

4. Then chart all the questionable adjustments and substitutions you made.

5. Then chart all the "bad" calls made by the officials in your game. If they are really bad, you need to adjust it for "net" bad calls, because I've got to believe you benefitted from a few of these.

Now ask yourself what one or two items above could have really turned around the game. Be honest!

Everyone makes mistakes. The descriptions in this thread bear out that just about everyone made mistakes in judgement - a real team effort. Learn from it, let it go, and move on.

[tjones1]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

That's the only part of the scenario that means anything at all.

A little perspective needed, I think...

Dittos

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by PGCougar
This is coach to coach. Let's try an exercise:

1. Review your game and chart all the turnovers your kids made.

2. Then chart all the uncoverted scoring opportunities: missed lay-ups, missed free-throws, missed shots, missed stick-backs, etc.

3. Then chart the difference in rebounding between you and your opponent.

4. Then chart all the questionable adjustments and substitutions you made.

5. Then chart all the "bad" calls made by the officials in your game. If they are really bad, you need to adjust it for "net" bad calls, because I've got to believe you benefitted from a few of these.

Now ask yourself what one or two items above could have really turned around the game. Be honest!

Everyone makes mistakes. The descriptions in this thread bear out that just about everyone made mistakes in judgement - a real team effort. Learn from it, let it go, and move on.

Well said. It is baffeling that parents/coaches/players would think refs care who wins/loses these games. Heck, I did 2 kiddy ball games today and right now I couldn't tell you who won either.

JRut, if I understood you correctly, you said (paraphrased) that the people working these games are either new or not successful at the higher level. I don't find that to be completely true. Yes, I do work with alot of newer/inexperienced people who sometimes make WhatTheHeckWasThat calls, but that isn't a 100% accurate statement. I see nothing wrong with making an extra hundred bucks on a Saturday afternoon and usually I've been asked to give this newer ref some pointers. Somebody needs to work with these people and help bring them along. Alot of experienced guys like to work some rec games and it's a real bonus when we get partnered up and get to have a cake-walk afternoon. Besides, these are the kind of games that you get the most humorous comments from coaches/fans.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
JRut, if I understood you correctly, you said (paraphrased) that the people working these games are either new or not successful at the higher level. I don't find that to be completely true. Yes, I do work with alot of newer/inexperienced people who sometimes make WhatTheHeckWasThat calls, but that isn't a 100% accurate statement. I see nothing wrong with making an extra hundred bucks on a Saturday afternoon and usually I've been asked to give this newer ref some pointers. Somebody needs to work with these people and help bring them along. Alot of experienced guys like to work some rec games and it's a real bonus when we get partnered up and get to have a cake-walk afternoon. Besides, these are the kind of games that you get the most humorous comments from coaches/fans.

I think you need to go back and read my post. I said "I would bet that the officials were inexperienced or not very successful at the higher levels." Or I said something like that. But that does not mean that it applies to every single situation. I am sure there are experienced officials that work many of these types of games, but that would be unusual at least where I live. Of course there are officials that work these games somewhere but mostly in my experience and what many talk about here, it usually are the newer and experienced officials that are not as accomplished. There are always exceptions to any basic rule. I know when I worked a JV game on a Saturday morning. I was at the school where the President of my official's association teaches. He was shocked when I showed up to work this level of game. I know when I work those Saturday morning games I cannot think of one time I worked with a regular varsity officials that has done any playoff experience. Not to say it does not happen ever, but it is rare. I was only speaking of what is typical, not what applies to everyone all the time.

Peace

[dblref]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

Well said. It is baffeling that parents/coaches/players would think refs care who wins/loses these games. Heck, I did 2 kiddy ball games today and right now I couldn't tell you who won either.

JRut, if I understood you correctly, you said (paraphrased) that the people working these games are either new or not successful at the higher level. I don't find that to be completely true. Yes, I do work with alot of newer/inexperienced people who sometimes make WhatTheHeckWasThat calls, but that isn't a 100% accurate statement. I see nothing wrong with making an extra hundred bucks on a Saturday afternoon and usually I've been asked to give this newer ref some pointers. Somebody needs to work with these people and help bring them along. Alot of experienced guys like to work some rec games and it's a real bonus when we get partnered up and get to have a cake-walk afternoon. Besides, these are the kind of games that you get the most humorous comments from coaches/fans.

This happens quite a bit in my association. We have a large rec program and there is a small number of varsity officials that don't work rec games. I am a varsity official and I work some of these games -- not nearly as often as I used to. However, I do pick the level of rec games that I will do.

[Junker]

In kids games, I have been know to go the other way just to prove a point to coaches or players. Yesterday I took a kids tournament and a couple of times I had players (5th-6th grade) officiating on the court, indicating which way the ball should go. I know its a small thing, but nip it in the bud. I would make sure I made eye contact with them and go the other way. Then I'd talk to them about playing and not officiating. Also, when I hear travel and such out of coaches, they do get called on their end. My view on these kids tournaments is show up, pat your kids on the back constantly, play hard, and go out for ice cream later. The kids need to be coached, not the officials.

[LarryS]

I tend to agree that the odds are good inexperinced officials called the game. The coach should have understood that was what he was going to get. The official should never have approached the coach...both should have let it go. Disappointing on both sides.

However, what I find equally dissappointing are the comments from some that they reward of give calls to well behaved coaches. If you "reward" a coach with a call, you have to be "punishing" someone else. Forget the other coach for a moment...what about the kids on the floor? In my opinion we are there for THEM. We should fairly apply the rules at all times.

IMO, doing anything else is unprofessional.

BTW, I don't think he said the officials cost his team the game. Just that they were bad. We have probably all seen good officials have an off game. When it happens to inexeperienced officials it looks worse. Still doesn't excuse the behavior of the coach.

Instead of turning the officials in...maybe he could find out who they were and help them along. Explain why it is never a good idea to approach a coach after the game, give them some concrete examples of how they could have made things better via game management and point out some things they did well. Conversely, speak with his head coach and explain the best way to deal with officials and how to comment/approach them during a game. Sounds like he is in the middle of a teaching opportunity...if he can pull his emotional attachment out of the situation (good luck with that).

[stosh]

As a coach (4-5 grade girls) who is also an official, I know that my first responsibility as a coach is to teach.

"Getting on the officials" is not even on the list.

I sit on the bench (usually holding my three year old on my lap) and encourage the girls from both teams. When the official makes a call, I tell my player what they did wrong; "don't reach", "move your feet", "go straight up", "no happy feet, start your dribble sooner", etc. Not all of the calls are calls I would make as an official, but they are all learning opportunities.

I have had parents who come in with an attitude of "blaming everyone else" go away thanking me for teaching the girls the proper way to play. The score means nothing if the girls don't learn and play better every game, and good sportsmanship is very high on my list.

There is enough "angst" at the higher level games between coaches and officals. We don't need it 4-5-6 grade level, and as coaches we are the ones who can stop it.

[Junker]

stosh,
That is exactly the kind of attitude we love to see out of lower level coaches. I'm sure everyone that works your games appreciates it. Too often we get (I stole this from another official, but loved the term) Daddy Clipboard coaching. They watch college coaches on tv and expect to act the same way in a kids' game. Not going to happen on my court. Keep up the good work!

[wizard]

Originally posted by stosh
As a coach (4-5 grade girls) who is also an official, I know that my first responsibility as a coach is to teach.

"Getting on the officials" is not even on the list.

I sit on the bench (usually holding my three year old on my lap) and encourage the girls from both teams. When the official makes a call, I tell my player what they did wrong; "don't reach", "move your feet", "go straight up", "no happy feet, start your dribble sooner", etc. Not all of the calls are calls I would make as an official, but they are all learning opportunities.

I have had parents who come in with an attitude of "blaming everyone else" go away thanking me for teaching the girls the proper way to play. The score means nothing if the girls don't learn and play better every game, and good sportsmanship is very high on my list.

There is enough "angst" at the higher level games between coaches and officals. We don't need it 4-5-6 grade level, and as coaches we are the ones who can stop it.

I'm in the same boat as stosh, official and coach of 5th grade girls. Although I'm usually standing the whole game, I'm only coaching the girls. I don't enjoy every call. No one does. But let's move on. I've got a team to coach.

Someone who is both an official AND a coach should have an appreciation of what level of officials you may or may not get for elementary school age kids. One day, you may have two top-notch officials who the night before both doing a big varsity games. And the next game, you've got two newbies who are still trying to learn. Or someone who's been around awhile and just wants to do cyo games and does a so-so job.

Coach your team. Help the girls play hard. Deal with things you have control over.