What's the Point?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Robmoz

Can anyone attest to having a head coach actually remain seated during the entire contest? Why have the coach's box then? It is rare to whack a head coach for standing to coach unless he has been warned, already seatbelted, or asks for it with his US conduct. It is not unusual to let them stand as long as they stay in the box area and don't come looking for trouble. This may not be a universally applied notion but it is what I do as opposed to strict enforcement.

Am I wrong for allowing it? Arguably, no.

Rule 1-13-2NOTE,as noted above, says that you can allow a coach to be on his feet and coach. That rule lets a coach stand and coach if their state allows the use of a coaching box. You have no reason(or right) to whack a head coach if they stick to coaching while standing within their box.

[Adam]

In Iowa, boys coaches are not allowed to stand and coach. I have to admit that I've not really enforced this well when they've stood. However, this year I've learned that it's best to do so, as both times I've let it go I ended up ringing the coaches up.

[WyMike]

If you're talking inexperienced.... I resemble those remarks!

Here's my take coach and I've coached VB from 10yr olds to AAU to traveling national competition teams. So I know about the 'other' side of it too.

This is my first year working BB and for the life of me unless a coach or bench personnel was way over the line I don't mess with them. At the MS level the kids are still learning so I allow coaches to step onto the football field as well as onto the playing court from time to time to "coach" their players. It's a learning time.

Unfortunately it's also a learning time for first year refs. A place to cut their teeth. I don't make certain contact calls in one town's tournament and I get the tournament director watching me and my partner for the next few games because someone tells them our game is "out of control". I make the same calls in another game and I get it from the other side that I'm "too tight".

I worked a 9 game Saturday to help out another nearby town and took cr@p most of the day from half of the coaches. One told another, and they watched specifically for contact non-calls, and they told another, and so on until it became widely known our games were chaos and to watch out. But I was also told by a number of the coaches there they were satisfied with the job my partner and I had done.

Without a doubt, if I ever go back to that town to help them out of a bind and one would come up to me and complain, I would simply ask for my pay up to that point and hand them my spare whistle as I left so they could work the rest of the day.

As an "inexperienced" first year official, I worked games from 8am until 6pm on a Saturday I had off, with a one game break. I busted my tail and the teams, coaches and parents got to play a game and go rest for a few hours until they were back for their next game all refreshed.

I make mistakes and I miss some calls. But don't ever disrespect me. Personally I'm not sure if I'll stay with BB. I love working FB and I've played many sports myself. But I will go to my grave carrying the belief that BB coaches are the HUGEST whiners, complainers, eye-rolling, smirking, hand gesturing group of people I know.

Heck, I might just stay with it to spite them and prove myself. Either way, I am getting my JV assignments so I must be doing something right.

Tough break on your T though. All I can say is control your bench, coach your players and play the hands your dealt. I do, as I have no control over what coach will be at the games I work. I would suggest discussing the A's a B's of a play or call with the assignor/official a week or so after the game so the heat and emotion aren't coming into play. You may see a totally different viewpoint, or you may be totally correct in your assumption.

Best of luck to you during your season.

[Edited by WyMike on Jan 26th, 2005 at 04:26 PM]

[Adam]

Well done, Wymike. Darn near brought tears to my eyes.

[buckrog64]

The only time I've T'd a coach off the bench was when he was purposefully ignoring my 'firm but polite' insistence that he sit down and follow the bench decorum rule. When he completely blew me off, and was up arguing a call, he earned himself a technical. The coach of the other team follows the same rules and expects them to be enforced.

We simply don't have all the facts unless we ourselves are there to see what happened.

[tarheelcoach]

First off, I NEVER said, on this board or to my players, that the call cost us the game. Far from the truth. I lurk on this board so that I become as familar and comfortable with the rules as possible. This situation struck me as one that though MAYBE technically correct (it can certainly be argued that in that situation his standing qualifies as a spontaneous display of emotion), it was certainly a bad judgement call and I wanted to get the other side (I would suspended for approaching the ref after the game to ask him!)

I appreciate everyone's opinion and advice.

From now on I'll give my assistant a gentle shove back on the bench before the ref sees him!

[SF]

Originally posted by WyMike
I will go to my grave carrying the belief that BB coaches are the HUGEST whiners, complainers, eye-rolling, smirking, hand gesturing group of people I know.

[Edited by WyMike on Jan 26th, 2005 at 04:26 PM]

Amen.

[coachgbert]

quote: "But I will go to my grave carrying the belief that BB coaches are the HUGEST whiners, complainers, eye-rolling, smirking, hand gesturing group of people I know."

Maybe you don't know the coaches that are working to change that image. I hope you have enough time before the grave that you meet one or two of us that will show you not all bb coaches whine, complain, gesture, smirk, stand, shout, or display other emotional outbursts that are inappropriate.

Coach G.

[tomegun]

Coachgbert, he did not say all coaches. Even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and agree that you are one of the coaches that do not do this the statement is still accurate IMO.

[xxssmen]

Situation - middle school game - 43-42 visitors with 17 seconds left. We are the home team. We give the foul to put the visitor's on the line, when the ref comes over and gives the sign for a T. I ask for an explanation and this what I get - "Your assistant stood up during the play - that's a technical."


Am lost here now if u foul team B to put on the line and the ref comes over and "T" ur Assistant shouldn't team B have had more than 2 free throws.
Base on the score am assuming that the ref who gave the "T" is either not very experience at all or that Team B can't shoot free throws.
This is what I see, ur team fouls to put them on the line so he should get 2 free throws assuming ur in the double bonus + 2 more for the "T" and possesion of ball at midcourt so u would had to foul again to put them on the line and u only lost by 3 points. I have never seen a ref call "T" on an assistant when the game is that close. I was always taught to let the players decide the outcome of the game, knowing that the game is that close I don't think a head coach or an assistant would jeopardize a "T" when the game is almost over.
I'm sure that the head coach for both team was of the bench throughout the game and he did not "T" them so why should he "T" the assistant for being up too.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by xxssmen
Am lost here now if u foul team B to put on the line and the ref comes over and "T" ur Assistant shouldn't team B have had more than 2 free throws.
Base on the score am assuming that the ref who gave the "T" is either not very experience at all or that Team B can't shoot free throws.
This is what I see, ur team fouls to put them on the line so he should get 2 free throws assuming ur in the double bonus + 2 more for the "T" and possesion of ball at midcourt so u would had to foul again to put them on the line and u only lost by 3 points.

Team B may not have been in the bonus. Also, they may have gotten that many shots but they just missed some of them. After B got the ball at midcourt, B may not have fouled again, but A couldn't get the shot off. The coach only told us what was germane to his concern.

[TimTaylor]

Maybe I missed something in reviewing the thread, but in the situation described, I would have probably called an intentional foul on the player - opponent gets two free throws plus ball for inbound at spot closest to where foul occurred. The description of events described by tarheelcoach himself clearly warrants it - classic example on an intentional foul by rule definition.

Rather than T the assistant, I would probably just have told the head coach to keep his bench under control - assuming it hadn't been a problem previously in the game. If the assistant had been acting up previously, then I'd probably whack him too.

[fiskme]

Do we have the official's side? Is it possible to make some potential conclusions without both sides, especially when someone seeks out an answer, not some smartass remark from some ref that has done it long enough to think his crap don't stink? I, giving the best answer that we can probably determine with the information provided, did that. I will respect that ref whether my guess is wrong or right, but when someone is looking for an answer, then why not give our best guess?
I know there is a good ole boys club in here, so that is why I rarely post. Friendship beyond worth.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by fiskme
Do we have the official's side? Is it possible to make some potential conclusions without both sides, especially when someone seeks out an answer, not some smartass remark from some ref that has done it long enough to think his crap don't stink? I, giving the best answer that we can probably determine with the information provided, did that. I will respect that ref whether my guess is wrong or right, but when someone is looking for an answer, then why not give our best guess?
I know there is a good ole boys club in here, so that is why I rarely post. Friendship beyond worth.

Fisk, part of the problem here is that there are very few coaches who come on here wanting an honest answer to a legitimate question. Personally, I think JR jumped on this coach a little early, but that's just because we've been jumped on so many times by coaches that we get a little self-protective. Usually, when a coach is talking about an end-of-game sitch with a point or two between the teams, it's because the coach wants to blame the loss on the ref. This coach appears not to have been aiming that way, but we didn't know that when we first saw him. It's hard to trust someone when you don't know him.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by fiskme
Do we have the official's side? Is it possible to make some potential conclusions without both sides, especially when someone seeks out an answer, not some smartass remark from some ref that has done it long enough to think his crap don't stink? I, giving the best answer that we can probably determine with the information provided, did that. I will respect that ref whether my guess is wrong or right, but when someone is looking for an answer, then why not give our best guess?
I know there is a good ole boys club in here, so that is why I rarely post. Friendship beyond worth.

Fiskme,first of all, stick that "good ole boy" talk right up your butt. What you get from me is my opinion and my opinion only- and never anybody else's.

I don't have a problem with the coach in this thread at all, believe it or not. I have a major problem with people like you that will dump on a fellow official without ever hearing their side. I might agree with you that the official was wrong after hearing his story, but I am simply not gonna accept one side of this or any story without hearing the other side. That comes from a lifetime of hearing complaints from both sides.

If you wanna impugn a fellow official without hearing their side, then feel free to continue posting your "guesses" about him. I won't do that. That's my opinion, like it or not.