What's the Point?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tarheelcoach
As far as history goes, the ref before the ballgame told the assistant he would only speak to me - he was obviously intent on enforcing the rules about what an assistant can and can't do (I don't know, maybe he had a problem at his last game with an assistant.)

That one's part of our association's training, Coach. It's mandatory for all of our guys to make sure that you and your assistants know at the pre-game meeting that the head coach is the only one allowed to stand and also is the only one allowed to talk to the officials. Iow, maybe he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. The bottom line is that you were warned. You now ignore that warning at your risk.

That said, I'd almost bet my left one that if we asked the official, we'd find out that your assistant was whining at him. That's usually the cause of these type of "T"s- not just an assistant coach silently and innocently standing there.

[Redhouse]

I don't understand why some people on this board always feel the need to not answer some peoples question just to be an a$$. It seems like Dan ref doesn't like to answer certain questions.

Why can't the coach's question be answered if that is the way it happened.

I will give you my opinion coach. If your situation happened as you say it did, I think that official was a moron to give a T. I can not see any reason or good that can come from giving a T there unless the official wants to make sure that the game doesn't go into overtime.

I hope this helps more than some of the others here.

[Edited by Redhouse on Jan 26th, 2005 at 10:07 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by tarheelcoach
Rainmaker, thanks for your advice. That's pretty much what my AD said - inexperienced refs sometimes get assigned games,

Coach, Juulie's (rainmaker's) comment is right on the money. At the middle school level, you can almost count on getting inexperienced refs, b/c that's where they get their experience. Inexperienced refs haven't always developed a sense for what is "appropriate and defendable" at every point of a ballgame.

Inexperienced officials get crammed full of rules and points of emphasis and where to stand and where to look. Bench decorum (including who is allowed to be off the bench) is a perpetual point of emphasis in many areas.

It is at least possible that you had an inexperienced official who knew (correctly) that your assistant is not allowed to coach while standing during any live ball in the game -- ever; but hasn't learned yet that a T in that situation is not a call we want to "live and die" with.

So while no one here (or hopefully in your locker room) will say that this official cost you the game, I think that if the situation happened as you describe it, we could probably agree that the T was not an appropriate call for that point of the ballgame.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Redhouse
I don't understand why some people on this board always feel the need to not answer some peoples question just to be an a$$.

I think that official was a moron to give a T.

I hope this helps more than some of the others here.

Yeah, that's helpful. Thanks

[DrakeM]

Regardless of the "letter of the law", 17 seconds left in a 43-42 game is NOT the time to "prove a point", unless the assistant is way over the top. Problem with that is, if you have let him get away with the behavior for the previous 31 minutes and change, you've "made your bed" and have to lay there.

I agree with Juulie, that this is probably more a case of inexperienced officials, than anything else.

A good learning experience however, by ALL parties invovled.

[DrakeM]

Chuck,

Why is it that I haven't posted for ages, yet when I finally see a topic of interest, you have to BEAT ME TO IT!
:

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Redhouse
I don't understand why some people on this board always feel the need to not answer some peoples question just to be an a$$. It seems like Dan ref doesn't like to answer certain questions.

Why can't the coach's question be answered if that is the way it happened.

I will give you my opinion coach. If your situation happened as you say it did, I think that official was a moron to give a T. I can not see any reason or good that can come from giving a T there unless the official wants to make sure that the game doesn't go into overtime.

I hope this helps more than some of the others here.

[Edited by Redhouse on Jan 26th, 2005 at 10:07 AM]

Maybe I should email you my posts to edit & approve before I post them?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Maybe I should email you my posts to edit & approve before I post them?

Or just make him a moderator!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by tarheelcoach
We had no T's on us at that point; though the home crowd had been on them all game about the calls (fouls were 21-5 against us), I don't bother anymore to complain - it doesn't do any good!

If the fans have been very vocal, it's likely that an inexperienced ref will think some of the "noise" is coming from the bench. Then when the fouls are very uneven, an inexperienced ref will think that your team is more aggressive, and the whole thing needs to be clamped down on. He will get a little touchy about any little thing anyone does. This seems to me like the best explanation. I speak from personal experience, since I was that same guy five years ago. If you intend to move up in your coaching, and he intends to move up with his reffing, you'll meet again. The best thing for you to do will be to give him another chance. He might improve -- if he's like I was, he's got no place to go but up!

[Redhouse]

WOW, you were a guy 5 years ago.

[Adam]

"Not that there's anything wrong with that."

[Redhouse]

Of course there is nothing wrong with that

[fiskme]

I do think that Dan ref was out of line with his comments. Do we wonder why some coaches view us as adversaries rather than a moderator? Let's show the guy some respect since he sought us out to help him understand why something happened rather than let his steam build up towards refs.

About the original question, yeah, as mentioned, probably inexperienced. The only T I have ever given for an assistant "standing up" was when he kept whining and was a total pain after warnings to he and the head coach. Maybe there was some of that?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Redhouse
WOW, you were a guy 5 years ago.

Well, I was "one of the guys", and I did "2-man" mechanics. At least according to the people who can't understand why women object to "man-to-man" defense. I'm not being defensive here, just pointing out how words can be ambiguous. I mean when it comes right down to it, don't a lot of our discussions have to do with what the meaning of "is" is?

[Smitty]

Originally posted by fiskme
I do think that Dan ref was out of line with his comments. Do we wonder why some coaches view us as adversaries rather than a moderator? Let's show the guy some respect since he sought us out to help him understand why something happened rather than let his steam build up towards refs.

About the original question, yeah, as mentioned, probably inexperienced. The only T I have ever given for an assistant "standing up" was when he kept whining and was a total pain after warnings to he and the head coach. Maybe there was some of that?

Why were Dan's comments out of line? Put into perspective, his comments and questions were appropriate. Maybe the T was deserved, maybe it wasn't. But the game itself was not determined by that one call.