what da ya got?

[JohnBark]

1.0 seconds left, Team A down by 2 in the 4th quarter. Team A inbounds ball and A1 goes up for a jumper. while in the air (on the way up) B1 fouls A1 before the horn sounds. A1's shot does not leave his hand before the buzzer sounds, it leaves his hand after the buzz. the shot goes in.

do you "a" count the bucket for continous motion and shoot 1? or "b" do you not count the bucket and shoot 2 for fouling while in the act of shooting, but cancel that bucket since it wasn't released before the horn sounded?

and if "b", what is the reason you tell the coach of Team A who would go nuts for not counting the bucket?

[ref18]

No basket, two shots.

The ball MUST leave the shooter's hands prior to the horn sounding.

You tell the coach that the only way the ball remains live when the horn sounds is if it is in flight on a try. The ball wasn't in flight, and you can't score with a dead ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by JohnBark
1.0 seconds left, Team A down by 2 in the 4th quarter. Team A inbounds ball and A1 goes up for a jumper. while in the air (on the way up) B1 fouls A1 before the horn sounds. A1's shot does not leave his hand before the buzzer sounds, it leaves his hand after the buzz. the shot goes in.

do you "a" count the bucket for continous motion and shoot 1? or "b" do you not count the bucket and shoot 2 for fouling while in the act of shooting, but cancel that bucket since it wasn't released before the horn sounded?

and if "b", what is the reason you tell the coach of Team A who would go nuts for not counting the bucket?

The A1's field goal attempt does not count. The ball was still in his hands when the game clock horn sounded. B1's foul is counted and A1 will shoot free throws with no one on the free throw lane only if the free throws will determine the outcome of the game. In this case if A1 misses his first free throw, he will not shoot his second one.

MTD, Sr.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Jan 23rd, 2005 at 09:06 PM]

[tjones1]

No bucket. A1 shoots two free throws with the lane cleared.

[tjones1]

Mark,

Might be out of line here, but why wouldn't you shoot the second free throw? A1 was granted two shots for the foul. What if Team B's coach comes to you after he missed the first shot and while you are walking off and is screaming in your face telling you what a low life form you are etc...which results in a T. Now the second free throw that wasn't shot becomes a factor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tjones1
Mark,

Might be out of line here, but why wouldn't you shoot the second free throw? A1 was granted two shots for the foul. What if Team B's coach comes to you after he missed the first shot and while you are walking off and is screaming in your face telling you what a low life form you are etc...which results in a T. Now the second free throw that wasn't shot becomes a factor.

If you do happen to give that late T, then you can shoot the 2nd shot plus 2 more for the T. You never shoot the second shot if it makes no difference in who wins though. Mark had it completely right.

Rules reference is R5-6-3Exception and casebook play 5.6.3SitD.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 23rd, 2005 at 09:23 PM]

[tjones1]

Ok, thank ya JR. That's what I was trying to get at/ask...if you could go back and shoot the last one if something crazy would happen.

[ref18]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If you do happen to give that late T, then you can shoot the 2nd shot plus 2 more for the T. You never shoot the second shot if it makes no difference in who wins though. Mark had it completely right.

Rules reference is R5-6-3Exception and casebook play 5.6.3SitD.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 23rd, 2005 at 09:23 PM]

Now I've done a few tournaments where points for and against mattered in the rankings. I guess my question is in a situation like that should we shoot both free throws because they matter some how?? The only reason I ask is because in a tournament like that I did it by the book only to have the importance of points for and against told to me by both the administrators of the game and the coaches.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
Now I've done a few tournaments where points for and against mattered in the rankings. I guess my question is in a situation like that should we shoot both free throws because they matter some how?? The only reason I ask is because in a tournament like that I did it by the book only to have the importance of points for and against told to me by both the administrators of the game and the coaches.

Julian, Basketball Ontario has released a provision that all free throws are to be attempted in games where the point spread would matter.

[williebfree]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ref18

Now I've done a few tournaments where points for and against mattered in the rankings. I guess my question is in a situation like that should we shoot both free throws because they matter some how?? The only reason I ask is because in a tournament like that I did it by the book only to have the importance of points for and against told to me by both the administrators of the game and the coaches.

Ref18

Unless there are tournament rules that supercede NFHS rules in this regard I would only award the shot(s) necessary to determine the winning team.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ref18

Now I've done a few tournaments where points for and against mattered in the rankings. I guess my question is in a situation like that should we shoot both free throws because they matter some how?? The only reason I ask is because in a tournament like that I did it by the book only to have the importance of points for and against told to me by both the administrators of the game and the coaches.

I'd say that unless the tournament specifically altered the rules, you don't shoot the FT's. Football has a specific rule stating that you can try the PAT if it affects playoff qualifying, but there is no such provision for shooting the free throws in basketball.

[Mark Dexter]

Is this becoming an epidemic? Are timekeepers everywhere getting lethargic? I swear this is the fifth time this season this question has come up.

I'd also like to point out that when I first thought of this situation, about five seasons ago, it was completely hypothetical and that it would never happen. Oy vey!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by JohnBark
1.0 seconds left, Team A down by 2 in the 4th quarter. Team A inbounds ball and A1 goes up for a jumper. while in the air (on the way up) B1 fouls A1 before the horn sounds. A1's shot does not leave his hand before the buzzer sounds, it leaves his hand after the buzz. the shot goes in.

do you "a" count the bucket for continous motion and shoot 1? or "b" do you not count the bucket and shoot 2 for fouling while in the act of shooting, but cancel that bucket since it wasn't released before the horn sounded?

and if "b", what is the reason you tell the coach of Team A who would go nuts for not counting the bucket?

John,
This came up about four days ago, due to a recent NCAA game between Indiana and Purdue. The NCAA ruling given by the Big Ten Conference is the same as the NFHS method, since they don't go into lag time. Here is a clip from that thread:

quote:
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After reviewing the courtside television monitors, the three-man officiating crew of Gene Monje, Tom O'Neill and Glenn Mayborg determined that Landry's shot came after the clock expired, but the foul came before. The officials gave Landry continuation on the layup, which tied the score at 63. They then gave Landry a foul shot with no time remaining, which he missed.

A Big Ten statement Tuesday said in part:

"While the foul was correctly called before time expired, the Conference office's weekly review process showed the ball was still in the hand of the Purdue shooter at the expiration of the game clock. According to the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rules and Interpretations (Rule 2-5.2.b, Rule 5-7.2.b, Rule 6-6.2), the Purdue player should have been granted two free throws with no time on the clock and the field goal should not have counted."
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