Over and back??

[BBallfanatic]

Ok... This is probably simple for most of you but I'm feeling like I'm not quite understanding this concept completely... Team A just inbounded the ball after a basket by team B. A1 is closely guarded in the back court by B1. B1 gets a piece of the ball in Team A's back court and rolls past the division line (where it would then be Team B's back court). Partner calls over and back. Coach B complains it wasn't... In my interpretation it would be a no whistle too because team B didnt not have team control... Or am I off base???

Another scenario:

Team A dribbles past division line and stops at the key where he is guarded by B1. A1 loses control of the ball so A1 and B1 go for the ball. The ball hits B1's knee and rolls past the division line into Team B's Backcourt where it was recovered by B1. Over an Back?? Or same as above because of team control??

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BBallfanatic
Ok... This is probably simple for most of you but I'm feeling like I'm not quite understanding this concept completely... Team A just inbounded the ball after a basket by team B. A1 is closely guarded in the back court by B1. B1 gets a piece of the ball in Team A's back court and rolls past the division line (where it would then be Team B's back court). Partner calls over and back. Coach B complains it wasn't... In my interpretation it would be a no whistle too because team B didnt not have team control... Or am I off base???

Partner called a backcourt violation on B? If they don't have control, you're right it's not BC. If B1 controlled the ball, and rolled it to a team mate in B's backcourt (which used to be A's frontcourt), then it's BC. OR of B1 controlled the ball and then fumbled it into B's backcourt, BC. But when you say B1 got a piece of the ball, it sounds like they just slapped it or tapped it or something like that. Then B doesn't have team control, and there's no BC.

Originally posted by BBallfanatic

Another scenario:

Team A dribbles past division line and stops at the key where he is guarded by B1. A1 loses control of the ball so A1 and B1 go for the ball. The ball hits B1's knee and rolls past the division line into Team B's Backcourt where it was recovered by B1. Over an Back?? Or same as above because of team control??

I'm not understanding this scenario. If the ball is in A's front court, and rolls across the division line, it's not in B's backcourt. Please clarify.

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by BBallfanatic
Ok... This is probably simple for most of you but I'm feeling like I'm not quite understanding this concept completely... Team A just inbounded the ball after a basket by team B. A1 is closely guarded in the back court by B1. B1 gets a piece of the ball in Team A's back court and rolls past the division line (where it would then be Team B's back court). Partner calls over and back. Coach B complains it wasn't... In my interpretation it would be a no whistle too because team B didnt not have team control... Or am I off base???

Another scenario:

Team A dribbles past division line and stops at the key where he is guarded by B1. A1 loses control of the ball so A1 and B1 go for the ball. The ball hits B1's knee and rolls past the division line into Team B's Backcourt where it was recovered by B1. Over an Back?? Or same as above because of team control??

Let's see if I can make it easier...there are three criteria that have to be met for a backcourt violation to occur:

1. Team control must be established
2. Ball last touched in front court by a player from team with team control.
3. Ball first touched in backcourt by a player from team that has team control.

Neither of the situations you described are backcourt violations because B never established team control.

[TimTaylor]

Juulie is right on the second scenario you gave - doesn't make sense. If the ball is taken past the division line & into A's front court area, then gets knocked loose & rolls back across the division line it would now be in A's backcourt & B's frontcourt....I think you got it mixed up.

In any case, look for the 3 criteria I listed in my earlier post - if it doesn't meet all 3 then it's not a backcourt violation.

[BBallfanatic]

That's what I thought... In order for it to be over and back the team needs to have control of the ball and have front court status before it can be considered a BC violation... not just "what team touched the ball last before it rolled across the division line". Correct me if I'm wrong... It's getting late for me and had 2 1/2 hours of homework before this so my brain is fried...

And just to mention... This is my first year reffing in MN... It's been great so far and have worked with lots of nice people and well... Not-so-nice people. I read this forum regularly and has been vital in my understanding of the rules and how to apply them... Thank you to all of you who spend time out of their lives to help others! I have been scheduled 41 games (9th grade and JV contests) throughout the season and the varsity refs and the assignor like the professionalism I show on and off the court when I'm watching the varsity games. And I have you all to thank for the tips and what not to make this sometimes challenging opportunity fun and enjoyable... Enough of my babbling... Have a good one All!!

[BBallfanatic]

To shorten it up (and correct myself)on the 2nd scenario... Sorry haha!

Team A is in their front court at their 3-point line where B1 was guarding A1... A1 lost control of the ball so A1 and B1 run for the ball B1 slapped the ball and A1's knee then hit the ball which sent it into team A's Back court where A1 recovered the ball... There we go... Lets try that... I'm hitting the sack so i can get my common sense back! lol

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by BBallfanatic
That's what I thought... In order for it to be over and back the team needs to have control of the ball and have front court status before it can be considered a BC violation... not just "what team touched the ball last before it rolled across the division line". Correct me if I'm wrong... It's getting late for me and had 2 1/2 hours of homework before this so my brain is fried...

And just to mention... This is my first year reffing in MN... It's been great so far and have worked with lots of nice people and well... Not-so-nice people. I read this forum regularly and has been vital in my understanding of the rules and how to apply them... Thank you to all of you who spend time out of their lives to help others! I have been scheduled 41 games (9th grade and JV contests) throughout the season and the varsity refs and the assignor like the professionalism I show on and off the court when I'm watching the varsity games. And I have you all to thank for the tips and what not to make this sometimes challenging opportunity fun and enjoyable... Enough of my babbling... Have a good one All!!

It can be a little trickier than that sometimes, as the ball can, under certain circumstances, gain front court status without itself ever touching in or being in player possession in front court. Check out this year's case book & you'll see what I mean....

Glad you're enjoying officiating - keep working hard at it & you'll do just fine!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BBallfanatic
To shorten it up (and correct myself)on the 2nd scenario... Sorry haha!

Team A is in their front court at their 3-point line where B1 was guarding A1... A1 lost control of the ball so A1 and B1 run for the ball B1 slapped the ball and A1's knee then hit the ball which sent it into team A's Back court where A1 recovered the ball... There we go... Lets try that... I'm hitting the sack so i can get my common sense back! lol

That's BC. Good, now I'll sleep better, too!

[BBallfanatic]

It can be a little trickier than that sometimes, as the ball can, under certain circumstances, gain front court status without itself ever touching in or being in player possession in front court. Check out this year's case book & you'll see what I mean....


I forgot also if A1 (who is in the front court) passes to A2. A2 is jumping to get across the division line. A2 catches the ball BEFORE he/she lands in the front court... That is BC too right? So yeah Tim you're right it is a bit more trickier than that.. I just remembered that...

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by BBallfanatic
It can be a little trickier than that sometimes, as the ball can, under certain circumstances, gain front court status without itself ever touching in or being in player possession in front court. Check out this year's case book & you'll see what I mean....


I forgot also if A1 (who is in the front court) passes to A2. A2 is jumping to get across the division line. A2 catches the ball BEFORE he/she lands in the front court... That is BC too right? So yeah Tim you're right it is a bit more trickier than that.. I just remembered that...

Yes that is a BC violation as the team A player has to establish being in the frontcourt with a foot being on the ground in the frontcourt before he catches the pass..

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by BBallfanatic

I forgot also if A1 (who is in the front court) passes to A2. A2 is jumping to get across the division line. A2 catches the ball BEFORE he/she lands in the front court... That is BC too right? So yeah Tim you're right it is a bit more trickier than that.. I just remembered that...

That one's actually pretty vanilla as A1 clearly has possession in front court satisfying requirements 1 & 2, and A2 has back court status because s/he last touched the court in backcourt and so had not yet established front court status prior to touching the pass from A1. A2 doesn't have to catch the ball to violate, just touch it.

Here's what I was referring to:
A1 inbounds the ball after made basket by B and is bringing ball up when s/he is double-teamed in backcourt by B. A1 passes ball to A2 who is standing in front court just past the division line. Ball bounces off hands of A2 & lands in backcourt...everything's OK so far. Now A2 steps into backcourt & touches the ball - whistle, backcourt violation. Even though the ball itself neither touched in front court nor was ever in player control in front court, it gained front court status immediately when it touched A2, who was in front court. I actually had this happen in a JV game recently - vehement reaction from A's coaching staff when I made the call, but they settled down when I explained it.. .

[BBallfanatic]

Yeah I can see how that's BC. It's just amazing how many coaches dont realize it. I had a JV game 2 weeks ago where A1 was inbounding the ball after an OOB just a little past half court in their front court. A1 threw in the ball to A2 who was in the back court and then coach B was complaining it was over and back... But the varsity coach quickly explained to him it wasn't. I almost asked the coach if he was serious!! haha

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by TimTaylor
2. Ball last touched in front court by a player from team with team control.

Remember that the ball doesn't have to be touched while it's actually in the frontcourt. Team A just has to be the last to touch it before it goes into the backcourt.

3. Ball first touched in backcourt by a player from team that has team control.

Remember that the ball doesn't have to be touched while it's actually in the backcourt. Team A just has to be the first to touch it after it has been in the backcourt.

Subtle, but important.