IU/Purdue from the weekend

[OverAndBack]

I didn't even realize there was a controversy about this until they were talking about it last night on the Purdue/Michigan State game and I happened to read the closed captioning while I was at a restaurant:

Hoosiers almost lost on officiating error.

After reviewing the courtside television monitors, the three-man officiating crew of Gene Monje, Tom O'Neill and Glenn Mayborg determined that Landry's shot came after the clock expired, but the foul came before. The officials gave Landry continuation on the layup, which tied the score at 63. They then gave Landry a foul shot with no time remaining, which he missed.

A Big Ten statement Tuesday said in part:

"While the foul was correctly called before time expired, the Conference office's weekly review process showed the ball was still in the hand of the Purdue shooter at the expiration of the game clock. According to the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rules and Interpretations (Rule 2-5.2.b, Rule 5-7.2.b, Rule 6-6.2), the Purdue player should have been granted two free throws with no time on the clock and the field goal should not have counted."

On the Purdue/Michigan State game, Brent Musburger said he'd never heard of continuation in a college game. You college guys, you tell me?

[Mark Dexter]

No "continuation," but NCAA has the continuous motion rule which is the same as the NFHS rule.

This play seems to be the exact one we've discussed several times (including just in the past week) regarding foul, whistle, horn, shot.

[Chess Ref]

i am thinking they felt bad about the call right before that in the scramble at the other end. Figured to even it up.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Chess Ref
i am thinking they felt bad about the call right before that in the scramble at the other end. Figured to even it up.

Where's the smiley? You're joking, right?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Where's the smiley? You're joking, right?

Lah me, I would certainly hope so!

You are joking, aren't you, Chess Ref?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Chess Ref
i am thinking they felt bad about the call right before that in the scramble at the other end. Figured to even it up.

Better go back to reffing chess.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by OverAndBack

After reviewing the courtside television monitors, the three-man officiating crew of Gene Monje, Tom O'Neill and Glenn Mayborg determined that Landry's shot came after the clock expired, but the foul came before. The officials gave Landry continuation on the layup, which tied the score at 63. They then gave Landry a foul shot with no time remaining, which he missed.

Officials are not allowed to review the monitor to determine if a foul occurred prior to the horn. I hope they were only looking at the shot.

[bob jenkins]

From the Big-Ten website:




Big Ten Statement Regarding Officiating During Indiana-Purdue Men's Basketball Game
The Big Ten Conference office acknowledged an officiating error which occurred during the Indiana at Purdue contest

Jan. 18, 2005

The Big Ten Conference office acknowledged today an officiating error which occurred during the Indiana at Purdue men's basketball game on January 15.

At the conclusion of the first overtime and during the process of reviewing the play at the courtside television monitor, the officials incorrectly interpreted playing rules regarding a made basket at or near the expiration of the game clock. While the foul was correctly called before time expired, the Conference office's weekly review process showed that the ball was still in the hand of the Purdue shooter at the expiration of the game clock. According to the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rules and Interpretations (Rule 2-5.2.b, Rule 5-7.2.b, Rule 6-6.2), the Purdue player should have been granted two free throws with no time on the clock and the field goal should not have counted. Indiana won the game in double overtime, 75-73.

When errors of judgment or rules application impact a game, the Conference office believes public acknowledgment of the error is appropriate. The Big Ten considers this matter concluded and will have no further comment.

[David B]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
From the Big-Ten website:




Big Ten Statement Regarding Officiating During Indiana-Purdue Men's Basketball Game
The Big Ten Conference office acknowledged an officiating error which occurred during the Indiana at Purdue contest

Jan. 18, 2005

The Big Ten Conference office acknowledged today an officiating error which occurred during the Indiana at Purdue men's basketball game on January 15.

At the conclusion of the first overtime and during the process of reviewing the play at the courtside television monitor, the officials incorrectly interpreted playing rules regarding a made basket at or near the expiration of the game clock. While the foul was correctly called before time expired, the Conference office's weekly review process showed that the ball was still in the hand of the Purdue shooter at the expiration of the game clock. According to the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rules and Interpretations (Rule 2-5.2.b, Rule 5-7.2.b, Rule 6-6.2), the Purdue player should have been granted two free throws with no time on the clock and the field goal should not have counted. Indiana won the game in double overtime, 75-73.

When errors of judgment or rules application impact a game, the Conference office believes public acknowledgment of the error is appropriate. The Big Ten considers this matter concluded and will have no further comment.

Thanks Bob. That makes a lot of sense.

I was trying to interpret what ESPN was saying last night and they had it all confused and tied in with continuation etc.,

Bottom line is he had his hands on the ball when time expired so don't count the basket.

Thanks
David

[cmathews]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Officials are not allowed to review the monitor to determine if a foul occurred prior to the horn. I hope they were only looking at the shot.

BBR, I happen to catch this as it was happening. The C clearly came in with the foul before the horn...and from what I could tell that portion was never in question. What I originally heard from ESPN (I know that this isn't the best source of information) was that the foul prohibited the shooter from releasing the ball before the horn...I know that that is an incorrect application, but that is what they said as far as why the counted the basket...but the foul portion of the play really never seemed to be an issue...just whether or not to count the hoop..

[ref18]

The way that statement is worded, it sounds like the NCAA uses "lag-time" with regards to timing. I thought they didn't.

So just for the sake of argument wouldn't it be better to count the basket, and put time on the clock, because by rule the clock was to have stopped when the foul was called, meaning there should still be time left in the game?? Or is there an expection somewhere that allows this to happen??

Now I don't officiate using NCAA rules, so I'm just going by what I've picked up on this forum in the past, but it seems like they've used the timer's lag-time in this interpretation.

For those of you who do use NCAA rules, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Adam]

cmatthews:
Interestingly, the announcers made the foul an issue at the time. When the officials broke away from the monitor, the announcers seemed utterly surprised that there was a foul call. They agreed it was the correct call, but seemed to indicate the foul was called from the monitor. They even went to a replay that showed the L not making a foul call; yet they completely ignored the C coming in very strong with the call.
I'm guessing they figured it out and didn't issue a correction on the air, though, as that would have made them look foolish.

[cmathews]

Snaqwells, yep I agree...to me the C coming in hard was obvious...however I did notice his arm wasn't necessarily straight up, more of an angle LOL ohhhh those college mechanics LOL

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ref18
The way that statement is worded, it sounds like the NCAA uses "lag-time" with regards to timing. I thought they didn't.

Lag time exists in NCAA games when Precision Time is not used. They just don't call it lag time.

So just for the sake of argument wouldn't it be better to count the basket, and put time on the clock, because by rule the clock was to have stopped when the foul was called, meaning there should still be time left in the game?? Or is there an expection somewhere that allows this to happen??

Perhaps but neither the NCAA or NFHS operates that way.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by ref18
The way that statement is worded, it sounds like the NCAA uses "lag-time" with regards to timing. I thought they didn't.

So just for the sake of argument wouldn't it be better to count the basket, and put time on the clock, because by rule the clock was to have stopped when the foul was called, meaning there should still be time left in the game?? Or is there an expection somewhere that allows this to happen??

Now I don't officiate using NCAA rules, so I'm just going by what I've picked up on this forum in the past, but it seems like they've used the timer's lag-time in this interpretation.

For those of you who do use NCAA rules, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The latest NCAA bulletin highlighted the fact that putting .1 or .2 seconds back on the clock is OVERKILL! The defined expectation is that a slight amount of time "lag" is expected and acceptable.

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 19th, 2005 at 12:03 PM]